New Records on Ancestry UK Birmingham, Warwickshire, Englan

[kenspeckle]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... kards.html

Birmingham, Warwickshire, England, Pub Blacklist, 1903-1906

maybe someone can find a rellie here ?
regards lesley

[LesleyB]

Sad to see these poor folk. They must belong in someone's tree, and to have a photo of them will no doubt help illustrate that tree, but you can't help feeling sorry for them - their lives must have been hard and probably quite short, with very little prospect of being able to "better yourself", no matter how hard you worked. You can understand them turning to drink, as it looks as if there was not much else in their lives to provide a bit of enjoyment or escape from the day to day drudgery and hand to mouth existence.

As a social comment, the photos have much more of an impact than words alone would have achieved.

[kenspeckle]

The images are wonderful and yes such hard lives they must have had we could not imagine today with social welfare one chap Ernest Poncia looks like he was rom a different background good features I looked him up and his father was a solicitor and he was a lawyer in 1891 so something must have gone wrong for him as he was a clerk at the Iron works in 1901

wish they had some for Glasgow or Edinburgh its a wonderful collection

[Currie]

What a depressing article to read. It would be quite a shock to anyone if they found one of their own relatives on there staring them in the face. Those photographs aren’t your average studio shots. They were taken of people without consent, in fact by force, at their most debased moment. If these sorts of photographs can be released after 100 years it makes the 100 year census release, with its relatively insignificant scraps of information , look a bit stupid. I suppose that next we’ll get the “ancestors being hung” photographic collection, followed by the “ancestors horribly wounded” and the “ancestors autopsies” collections, probably all just as legitimate as the “ancestors drunk and in custody” collection.

The written word is much more gentle, and is not, like a photograph is, a window to the soul. This item from the Birmingham Daily Post, Thursday, March 8, 1894, probably refers to the lady at the top of the list with all the scars. There was an earlier item about her being stabbed.

BIRMINGHAM POLICE COURT
"KEEP IT UP."—Alice Loxley, a smartly-dressed young woman, was charged with committing damage to the property of Cecilia Connor, of 21, Bartholomew Street, and with assaulting two police-officers. Prisoner occupied furnished apartments in Buck Street belonging to Mrs. Connor. On Tuesday night the landlady had her attention called by neighbours to the conduct of the prisoner, who was smashing up the furniture in her room. A constable was called, and on entering the apartment found prisoner swinging the leg of a table about and singing “We’ll keep it up; my birthday comes but once a year. Let's keep it up, let's keep it up." The ornaments and furniture were smashed. The officer took her into custody, and on the way she kicked him, and also assaulted another constable who came to his help. Prisoner had been several times convicted, and the magistrates sent her to prison for a month for each offence. As she left the dock she held up a four-months-old infant, and commenced to sing "Molly and I and the baby."

And in case anyone is curious about the song, it was written in 1892 by Harry Kennedy. http://www.archive.org/stream/5552564/5552564_djvu.txt

I've a neat little cottage, and in it does dwell
Molly and I and the baby;
And I'm sure that for comfort no king can excel
Molly and I and the baby.
My dear little Molly is just twenty-three,
The baby's turned one, and between you and me.
We're the nicest young family you ever did see,
Molly and I and the baby.

Chorus.

Molly, Molly, always so jolly.
Always laughing, chock full of glee.
Living as happy as happy can be,
Molly and I and the baby.

Now we care not for riches or palaces grand,
Molly and I and the baby;
For I'm sure we'd not change with the best in the land,
Molly and I and the baby.
When I get home from work with my babe on my knee,
I sit in my arm-chair, while Molly makes tea,
Then we dine at a table that only seats three,
Molly and I and the baby.

Every bright Sunday morning to church we will go,
Molly and I and the baby;
As we walk down the street all the people they know
Molly and I and the baby.
Now Molly's a girl that you'd all like to meet.
Her ways are so charming, her smile is so sweet;
If you chance to be our way, just drop in and greet
Molly and I and the baby.

Alan

[SarahND]

If these sorts of photographs can be released after 100 years it makes the 100 year census release, with its relatively insignificant scraps of information , look a bit stupid.

Hi Alan,
I had exactly the same reaction-- what a terrible invasion of privacy and why is this "okay" when, for example, adoption records are not?

Disturbed,
Sarah

[emanday]

I'm afraid I found it really quite distasteful as well.

True, we can access some English criminal conviction stuff on Ancestry, but it is only the name, sometimes age and the crime, verdict and punishment if any. Thank heavens they haven't included the images of these folk!

I wouldn't want to see the photo of a 13 year old who was just about to be transported for 7 years for stealing a couple of potatoes! (One I found while searching for someone else).

Very poor taste!

[trish1]

I have a couple of thoughts - it is possible to get similar "mug shots" today - of people being arrested - when at their lowest ebb - not sure about UK but in many states of the US you can look up prisoners and arrest records online and see such photos. The media often show such photos at the time of arrest. The more "famous" the person being arrested, the more likely you seem to be able to access same, so if I do find one of my family here, I will feel much compassion about what led them to that situation, but I would write kindly about them & would probably include the photo and details in my family history.

The whole concept of what can and cannot be released in various countries confuses me. In much of the UK I have access to BDM data almost to the current date (at least the indexes if not the full details) - In Australia this is not the case - most birth records (and indexes) are only available after 100 years, marriages 50 or more years and deaths 30 or more years.Yet anyone in Australia can request full access to WWII veterans records - which I don't believe is the case in the UK. I can also find online lists of servicemen who served in Korea and Vietnam. I have read a most fascinating report on a war veteran who committed bigamy and the army had to resolve who was entitled to his pension. Not sure that his family would approve of this being available. I have letters my grandmother,great grandmother and other relatives wrote to the War office - courtesy of our national archives.Family disputes can often be found in these letters. I think there is some information available that someone will always think should not be there - but someone else will love to find same.

Trish

[kenspeckle]

I personally think that the records are wonderful and present a great insight into a small section of the community living in Birmingham in 1903 I was actually more aggrieved about some of the comments attached to the newspaper article some of them really ignorant
if you were to read that your ancestor Molly Malone was arrested for being habitually drunk what sort of picture would you have in your mind of this woman ? those pictures show the way they dressed and how they looked , often weary and old before their time there's not many tall people some less than 5ft in height ..... when we look at historical records and happenings we have to remember not to judge or think with modern minds
I felt only compassion for them I think its good that they have actually "survived" so to speak even if its a record of a conviction for being drunk I have a few friends here in Australia that were thrilled to bits find a photo of their Convict ancestors and they were a pretty bedraggled looking bunch not quite the photo you would have on the wall :0) but just to see what he looked like was a great find thing is they are thinking as genealogists
I am thrilled to find any details on my family no matter how bad it is (that's life) many facts are lost because Old Grannie ect was so embarrassed or ashamed about something that the details of a family member were suppressed for ever
I have wept over poor law records that I have found, and been saddened over death records when a family has suffered one child after another in the space of two weeks dying and that was not even my family it was people I found along the way
I was intrigued by Ernest Poncia as he looked rather dapper compared to the rest his father a solicitor, Ernest was a lawyer and his brothers were to , but he ended up a clerk in 1901 then unemployed and homeless in 1903 when he was arrested he does not show in 1911 nor in any death records that I could find I can only hope that he made good perhaps in another country I notice with interest that he is on a tree in Ancestry belonging to larynb added just recently this person also has the some of the others as well among their photos makes me wonder ???? maybe they hope to find the living descendants of their families
Possibly those records were not bound by any release legislation..... but the census is
as far as adoption records it was not until 1930 that adoptions were recorded and the people who were adopted then would still be alive today so they and their families must be protected not all adoptees want to find out but if a person does they are now able to find out from the records as long as its them that applies or they sign for a son or daughter to get access.... at least in Scotland thats how it is
regards lesley

[cathy52]

Is there anything like this for glasgow 1900s.

[Currie]

Hello Cathy,

There are more photographs of “boozy female drinkers” here. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ealed.html

There are only 82 persons in the Ancestry collection, and only for the years 1903 to 1906. The blacklist with the photographs came from a brewery and not from any government archive.

“If it hadn’t been for the brewery, this collection may have disappeared from history as official inebriate records were not held. The Black List has now been published online for the first time, preserving it for future generations to explore and enjoy. http://www.ancestryeurope.lu/press/pres ... try.co.uk/

Enjoy it in the same way one would enjoy a public hanging I suppose. Ancestry seems to have enjoyed quite a lot of free publicity from the public humiliation of these poor individuals.

There’s something about it in Parliamentary Papers: 1909 [Cd. 4767] Departmental Committee on the Operation in Scotland of the Law relating to inebriates and their detention in reformatories and retreats. Minutes of evidence & appendices.

This is part of the evidence given by a Dundee Magistrate.

“Another "reformatory" method which has been tried in Dundee at very considerable expense and trouble, and found ineffectual, is that of black-listing under powers contained in section 72 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903. On 2nd March 1905 the Provost, magistrates, and councillors made regulations for the giving of information to upwards of four hundred licensed persons as also to secretaries of eleven or twelve registered clubs in Dundee, notifying them regarding persons convicted for offences mentioned in the Inebriates Act, 1898, and for assisting in the identification of those persons. Printed forms and informations were prepared and distributed to license-holders, etc., and in each case the photograph and description of the convicted person black-listed, together with the sentence, and date thereof imposed, was also furnished. Between 6th March and 14th November 1905, 42 persons—namely, 35 females and 7 males—were so "black-listed" and circulated; but in almost every instance, in spite of every precaution taken, they were found back before the police court over and over again charged with drunkenness, or crimes or offences directly traceable to drink. Indeed, so far as this method was concerned, it was so clearly an evident failure in so far as preventing such persons getting supplies of drink, that it was considered useless to continue the expensive effort.”

And this is part of a statement by the Chief Constable of the Counties of Fife and Kinross.

“With regard to section 72 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, the police authority made the necessary regulations. Only one person has been black-listed since the Act came into operation. This man was reported with a view to his being dealt with as a habitual drunkard, but it was ascertained that he was not a proper subject, inasmuch that while drunk he was always harmless and no danger to himself or others. He has forty-three convictions of all kinds, and there would have been many more if his friends had not come to his assistance so often by escorting him home. Seventy-four licensed premises and ten clubs, within a radius of 12 miles, received notification and were shown his photograph, but judging from his subsequent record, black-listing has not been a success in this case. He had four convictions for being drunk and incapable during the twelve months preceding November 1906. There is no difficulty for such people obtaining excisable liquor, if they have the money, without fear of detection. Elsewhere in the county this clause has been considered impracticable in working, and consequently no further case has been brought to the knowledge of the police authority.”

So it seems the blacklist thing was a bit of a fizzer. Meanwhile Ancestry is scouring the country’s pubs and breweries trying to find more of this sort of material for us to enjoy. Hopefully they’ll draw a blank.

All the best,
Alan