What's your take on it?

[SandySandilands]

I would be grateful if the kind people here on TalkingScot would be willing to cast their eye over details of a letter written in 1784 and let me know what we can deduce from it.

The letter was written by John Sandilands - his name is all the knowledge I have of him - to John Roger, Writer, in Selkirk. The letter is badly damaged in parts and hard to read. This is what I have managed to make out:

"I wrote you a (torn) of info
To summon james? *un**** for a balance of an
Which amount is only 6/4 pound. Be sorry to do it but he owd? oblige me to take back a remnant of hair cloth which is useless to any person after keeping it 10 months. When I wrote him to send all remnants back directly, as soon as the chair was done, I did to serve him take back a quantity of brass nails, which may come to use, which I needed not have done. He pretends as I sent one 1/20? of yard more of hair cloth than what was to be used but the reason I did that, it was all the piece which the more he could save to send back was still more in his favour, if I had cut it he could have saved none. If he chooses to pay it you need not go any further but if not, do what you think proper. It is being ungrateful in time? as the balance of acct? I gave back when he was short of money to carry him home, the original balance ****** was 10? but the discount of brass nails brought to 6/4.

I am Sir your much oblige humble? servant
John Sandilands

I gave him the copy of ? yardage which you can sue? as i am sort? Person I have not ?."

My thoughts are that John was a merchant rather than a weaver because he took back the brass nails and he was dealing in both nails and cloth?

Are there any other clues here that might help me pick up the trail of John Sandilands?

Excited to see what you folks come up with - you always manage to surprise

Sandy

[LesleyB]

Hi Sandy

It is a pity we cannot see the original, as some of the wording may be easier to sort out that way. Is there any way you could scan the letter?

owd? = may be wd - short for would?
balance of acct? = acct will be short for account.
I am Sir your much oblige humble? servant
= "humble" seems a pretty likely word to be used in this context. Could it be "much obliged"?

Could he be an upholsterer or dealer in upholstering supplies or similar? I'm not sure what haircloth was used for other than upholstering chairs - that is the only context in which I have ever come across it, but it seems it may also have been used for stiffening in garments and for uncomfortable garments used for religious reasons. (Same fabric as hair shirts?)

Best wishes
Lesley

[SandySandilands]

Thanks Lesley.

Hoping to have it scanned and uploaded within the hour. Will add the link as soon as I am able

Re the haircloth - did a bit of research into this and discovered that it was also used for laying on the floor whilst drying hops. One of my ancestors was a corn merchant at one point, another a wine & spirit merchant - so I thought that might fit in with brewing.

There was a Sandilands who was an upholsterer. He was named George but I have also found reference to him as "John".

Sandy.

[SandySandilands]

I have now uploaded the letter. You can view it here:http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb4 ... ds/js1.jpg

Thanks
Sandy

[paddyscar]

Hi Sandy:

Definitely an outstanding debt for upholstery supplies.

Horse hair was used in upholstered chairs, couches, setees, etc. It was actual horse hair which was matted (not woven) into thin layers of 'material'. Springs added to the frame were kept in place by the use of steel brackets and tied. Over that the horse hair tightly covered the springs, assisting to keep them in place. The layer of horse hair was then tacked with nails to the frame to create a barrier. This ensured the springs would not work their way through the batting or other stuffing (also sometimes, looser more pliable horsehair) with wear and time.

The whole thing was topped off with the decorator fabric - velvet, satin, wool, or even leather.

The brass nails would be a finishing nail, which you often see, even today in a line on the outside of a leather chair, etc.

Tacks were used to hold the inner fabrics in place; being cheaper, smaller and rougher.

Gimp was used as a finishing trim when the brass nails were not used. It was glued over a line of tacks to provide a clean, stylish finish on the outside.

The horse hair used then, looked a bit like cocoa mats. There are many modern products made of nylon thread/twine, run in random patterns (like a doodle) then lightly heated to meld the whole thing together. In a more dense pattern, this would be similar in look also to horse hair.

Look forward to having a look at the scan after Doctor's appt. and a meeting.

Frances

[SandySandilands]

Thanks for that detailed reply, Frances. Most informative!

My 3 x grt-grandfather was a skinner for some time before becoming a wine and spirit merchant and in his final years a woolsorter. My 2 x great grandfather was a skinner in Scotland but when he came to England he was later described as a Fellmonger. One of the brothers of my 3 x grt-grandfather was a cabinet maker. I think, from your description, upholstery would sit well with those occupations?

There was a George (sometimes recorded as John) Sandilands, upholsterer who married a Katharine Minto in 1783 at Edinburgh. Katharine was from Selkirk and so were my Sandilands before they moved to Edinburgh. I shall take another look at what I know about him.

Sandy

[paddyscar]

Hi Sandy:

Here's what I've deciphered from the linked page.

I wrote you ..... info
to Sumon ... for a bolt one of any
which amount is only 6/4 I ould be sorry I don’t,
but ould oblidge me to take back a remnant of
hair cloth, which is useless to any person after
keeping it 10 months. When I wrote him to
Send all remnants back derectly, as soon as the
Chairs was done, I did to Serve hime take back
a Quainty of B..... naills, which may Come to use
which I neede no have done, he pretends as I Sent
¼ of yard more of hair Cloth than what was
to be used. But the reason I did that . it was all
the peice which the more he Could have to Send back
was Still more in his .. favo.. ur, if I had Cut it he oud
have Saved none. If ... Chuses to pay it you need
not go any further But if not, do what you
think proper, it is Very ungratefull in Hime
as the Ballance of I .... . I gave back when
he was Short of money to Carey him home, the original
Baltan was 10/ but the discount of
Brass nails brads(?) 10 6/4
I am Sir Your much
Obidged ????? Sent
John Sandiland
I gave him
the copy of out
....... which
you Can See
as I am Sent for .... I have not time

I gather the purchaser asked for a smaller quantity of hair cloth, thinking he could squeeze his needs out of it. The purchaser must have asked if Mr. Sandilands would allow him to return any unused bits.

Mr. Sandilands wouldn't be willing to take back any scraps, as they'd be no use to him. It sounds as if he suggested purchaser take a slightly larger length of fabric, cutting his pattern pieces from it, returning the balance to him as soon as the chair was completed. With this concession to not accepting scraps, Mr. Sandilands could use the 'cut piece' in house and thereby credit the purchaser with return of the balance of the cut piece.

Even today some fabric stores, will not cut fabric beyond a certain limit. Some won't leave themselves with less than 1 yard on a bolt. Say, if there is 2.5 yards remaining on a bolt and you need 1.75, they may refuse to cut it and offer the remaining .75 yards at a reduced cost. The reason is that they end up with all kinds of remnants that are of no use to anyone and they end up losing the value.

The length of time the purchaser had the cloth, is an issue. It might have been in an environment which could cause the glue and horse hair to deteriorate and be unreliable for Mr. Sandilands to use in-house.

Sounds like Mr. Sandilands got the raw end of a deal for being nice.

Frances

[SandySandilands]

Thanks Frances, much appreciated. =D>

When I read your transcription of the letter I got a real sense of the character of John and I could hear him speaking those words

"as I am Sent for .... I have not time"

Oh! I wonder where he was off to? LOL