Help!!!

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trish1
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:38 am
Location: australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by trish1 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:32 am

Hello Ann

my finds were all to nothing - but I do understand your thoughts. Sarah helped me with a Warr family I am chasing - now I have found 2 sons - one is listed as dying Dec Qtr 1838, a different son is listed as being buried Dec 17, 1838. I am also in somewhat of a fankle as to which son - or both?

Alan's skill in finding the right news items continues to amaze.

Trish

SarahND
Site Admin
Posts: 5568
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Re: Help!!!

Post by SarahND » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:47 pm

:shock: :shock:
Talk about spanners in the works as well as fankles... look at this:

1886 Deaths in the District of Dennistoun in the County of Lanark
James Richmond
Gamekeeper
Widower of
1st Elizabeth Lamond
2nd Mary McEachen

1886
January Sixteenth
12 00 Noon
54 McIntosh Street
Glasgow

Sex M
Age 72 years

Father: John Richmond, Farmer (deceased)
Mother: Elizabeth Richmond, m.s. Robb (deceased)

Pneumonia
as Cert. by James Smellie, M.D.

Informant: Anne Richmond, daughter, present
***************

Do we believe Anne??

SarahND
Site Admin
Posts: 5568
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Re: Help!!!

Post by SarahND » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:27 pm

I'm inclined to think that Anne was a bit confused. After all, she didn't personally know any of these people. Thomasin's birth record in 1843, Boleskine, gives her mother as "Elesabeth Harrison" according to FamilySearch, as does John's. So I wonder where the surname Lamond came from??

As for John Richmond, farmer and Elizabeth Robb… I can't find this couple anywhere. Anyone else have any luck?

However, if we are going to be moved out of this house by tomorrow afternoon as planned, I've got to get cracking! Hope someone else has some insight on this while I'm working :D

Sarah

Wee Ann
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by Wee Ann » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:21 am

On Looking again at my tree, I have an exact date for the marriage of James and Mary McEachen - 31st October 1846.

Surely this must mean I have seen the marriage certificate? If that were the case, and I have seen the certificate, then it would have had the names of James parent's on it. I have searched among my documents and cannot find it anywhere.

Maybe the answer is to send for it! (Again)

I have been on to Scotland's People and bought some credits. I did the search, put the date in and paid the one credit to see that it was the entry I wanted. I then paid the five credits to see it properly, but all I can see is the same as for the one credit! I know I am doing something wrong!, But I cannot work out what!

HELP!

Ann
Roe/Rowe, Kane, Logue, Harkin, Commons, Gillan, Ireland.
McPherson, Richmond, Bowers, Laird, Russell, Cuthbertson, Scotland

trish1
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:38 am
Location: australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by trish1 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:12 am

Ann - if the five credits have been charged - log onto SP and look at your "viewed images". This marriage should be at the top of the list. Click on view.

Depending on your set up you should see the image - I have my "image viewer" set to direct download - so when I click on view - it gives me a link to download an image.

Trish

PS - 1846 is before civil registration - this will be a church record which may not include parent names. Most of my church records have the name of the bride's father but no other parents. Some have no parents mentioned for either of the couple..

Wee Ann
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by Wee Ann » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:49 am

Thanks Trish!
I'll give it another try, either that or wait until 'the expert' comes home and get him to work it out for me.

All the best

Ann
Roe/Rowe, Kane, Logue, Harkin, Commons, Gillan, Ireland.
McPherson, Richmond, Bowers, Laird, Russell, Cuthbertson, Scotland

Montrose Budie
Posts: 713
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:37 pm

Re: Help!!!

Post by Montrose Budie » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:17 pm

trish1 wrote:........snipped........
Trish

PS - 1846 is before civil registration - this will be a church record which may not include parent names. Most of my church records have the name of the bride's father but no other parents. Some have no parents mentioned for either of the couple..
Just a note of caution, and to damp down unrealistic expectations, - the great majority of OPR records relating to marriages and banns have no info on the names of the parents.

Sometimes you will get a location for the couple, even different locations; sometimes the man's occupation; very occasionally the name of someone putting up a bond; but, outside the upper classes, rarely the name of parents.

Ministers and session clerks were not provided with any guidance from the church authorities as to the form that the OPR record should take, unlike in England. In other words it was entirely down to the minister and/or session clerk. Very occasionally you may find a minister or session clerk who decided that it was a good idea to record the name of the father of the intended bride, outwith cases involving the upper classes; you should thank your good fortune if this is the case.

Going off on a slight sidetrack, when the minister or session clerk changed, it's quite common to find a change in the format of the OPR entries, both positive and negative as regards content. This comment is more relevant to births/baptisms, i.e. records relating to siblings of your direct ancestor may contain more information, so are worthwhile locating.

It's far from uncommon to find an OPR entry such as "This day John SMITH and Mary BROWN handed in their names to marriage" indicating banns being proclaimed some time soon, - nothing more. In such a case it's a reasonable assumption that both John and Mary were long-time residents in the parish.

If the couple came from different parishes, then banns should have been proclaimed in both parishes, i.e. look for such, as it's possible one of the OPR entries may have a bit more info. If one, or both of the couple had recently moved from another parish, then it's even possible to find banns being proclaimed in 3, or even 4 parishes. The whole purpose of the banns was to discover if there was any impediment to marriage, hence the reason for there being banns in a previous parish of residence.

And remember that evidence of banns is not evidence of marriage, - that's a subject in its own right, in terms of interpretation of OPR entries. In other words, for instance, if consecutive OPR entries over several pages all include the dates of the banns (or the fact that banns had been cried) and the date of the marriage, except for the one entry, then it's a reasonable suspicion that that marriage did not take place in that instance; but then we're assuming that every session clerk was diligent in fully recording this info in every instance.

While I'm at it, let me correct another common misunderstanding. The Established Church of Scotland required that banns be proclaimed, or 'cried' on three occasions. Most often that took place on three successive Sundays. However, there was nothing to prevent these three proclamations taking place during the morning and evening services one Sunday, and then one service the following Sunday.

There are even well recorded instances where the need for the marriage was rather 'urgent', for obvious reasons, when the three proclamations took place on the same Sunday, or even during a mid-week service. In this case it was understood that there was a period of 48 or 72 hours for any objections to be registered, before the marriage went ahead.

Lastly, going against guidance from Edinburgh, perfectly OK if their Kirk Session approved, some ministers considered that only two proclamations were sufficient.

If you are interested in further details I'd strongly recommend that you obtain a copy of The National Index of Parish Registers Volume XII, Sources for Scottish Genealogy and Family History, by D. J. STEEL Assisted by the late Mrs A. E. F. STEEL, published for the Society of Genealogists, Phillimore, SBN 900592 52 4.

Ye widnae credit the ongauins !

mb


Later PS
Amazon currently has a paperback (I didn't know that there was one!) at £3.80, and two hardbacks, £8.79 and £15.00/
mb

Wee Ann
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by Wee Ann » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:27 am

The "Boss" came home and downloaded Java for me and I was able to view the image. Unfortunately it was not the correct one, as neither the date nor the names I was looking for appeared.

I have sent a message to S.P. and now await their reply.

Thank you Budie for your explanation of what to expect. I think we all still live in hopes of getting as much information as we can for our endeavours.

Many thanks to everyone for their hard work on my behalf.

Ann
Roe/Rowe, Kane, Logue, Harkin, Commons, Gillan, Ireland.
McPherson, Richmond, Bowers, Laird, Russell, Cuthbertson, Scotland

trish1
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:38 am
Location: australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by trish1 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:42 am

Keep hoping Ann - as I said, most of the early marriages I found for my Scottish ancestors included the name of the father of the bride. My families must have picked the right preachers. Most were in Fife and the earliest I have is 1722. Many also included the occupation of the groom and/or the brides father - also useful in tracing the right folks.

Trish

Wee Ann
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by Wee Ann » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:25 pm

I had a reply this morning from S.P.
They refunded me five credits and then when I tried again to view the page it was still the wrong one.
I will keep trying, as I have no doubt we will get it right eventually
Ann
Roe/Rowe, Kane, Logue, Harkin, Commons, Gillan, Ireland.
McPherson, Richmond, Bowers, Laird, Russell, Cuthbertson, Scotland

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