Death certificate details

[trish1]

I have this death record from family search. Would the death certificate give the parent names?

Family Search (LDS) Civil Registration
Name: Isaac Beattie
Event Type: Death
Event Date: Oct - Dec 1911
Event Place: Newry, Ireland [county Down]
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1911
Registration District: Newry
Age: 76
Volume Number: 1
Page Number: 533 GS Film number: 0101605
Digital Folder Number: 004201709
Image Number: 00165


thanks
Trish

[LesleyB]

Hi Trish
Irish death certs of that period are very similar to English ones, so sadly, no, no parent names.
Best wishes
Lesley

[trish1]

Thanks Lesley - I'll save my money for something else

Trish

[Elwyn 1]

The death probably refers to this man:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... re/258280/

and in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/p ... e/1249749/

He seems to have been a pensioner which, in 1901, normally meant he was an army pensioner. So you might get something on him from the military records. Alternatively check the local Presbyterian church records for his baptism. There’s a couple of Presbyterian churches in the area. Ballyroney’s records start in 1819 & Brookvale in 1867. Copies of both are held in PRONI, Belfast.

Griffiths revaluation records shows Isaac Beatty on plot 21b in Moneygore (a house and 2 acres). He acquired that in 1898 from a William Beatty who was listed as the tenant in 1864. I’d suspect therefore that Isaac’s father was William.

http://applications.proni.gov.uk/dcal_p ... esult.aspx

[trish1]

Hi Elwyn

Many thanks for your reply. I am also 99% sure he is the military man - I have the details of his military service from FMP - I found him in 1901 - but didn't find him in 1911 - so thank you so much for that one. My searching is hopeless - I did find one of the sisters died in 1906 - but should have found Isac or Margret.

I didn't know there was such a thing as Griffiths "revaluation" - so that is an interesting as well, especially re father William. I'm not getting too far in the search - I've entered moneygore & down - have a list of 6 possibilities - where do I go from there? I've looked at the index of the 1884-1908 book but find no reference to Moneygore - so am lost. I also can see no dates in the books? Did your 1864 link to William Beattie as tenant come from this data?

I am trying to link Isaac to this group in 1851 Scotland

1851 Lanarkshire Govan 646 ED3 P36
Shaw's Land
John Wright 30 head born Ireland Muslin weaver
Margaret Wright 37 wife born Ireland
Charles Beattie 22 nephew born Ireland muslin weaver
Isaac Beattie 13 nephew born Ireland muslin weaver
Rachel Beattie 16 niece born Ireland Muslin weaver
Agnes Beattie 12 niece born Ireland muslin weaver
William Whitelaw 17 lodger born Glasgow muslin weaver
Charles Cain 14 visitor born Govan (no occupation given)

Original thought was that all the Beatties were siblings but

Charles died 1884, Scotland - parents given - by his son as William Beattie and Elizabeth Thomson - married 1853, no details of family
Agnes died 1856, Scotland - parents given as Robert Beattie and Agnes Thomson by uncle John Wright
Rachel I cannot find post 1851 - too many possibilities

The service record for Isaac led me back to Ireland - details were
He was a weaver from Rathfriland, Down - attested at Glasgow 8th Jan 1856 aged 18 years. On discharge 1867 he intended to reside Rathfriland County Down

Given the sequence of the census record (relatives not in age sequence) - perhaps Charles/Isaac belong to one family while Agnes/Rachel are from another.

Given that Isaac said he was born in the parish of Rathfriland (Rathfryland) would it still be possible that he was baptised in Ballyroney?

many thanks

Trish

[Elwyn 1]

Trish,

Re Griffiths. You probably know that, save for some fragments, nearly all the Irish censuses pre 1901 were destroyed. To compensate a little, some other records have been gathered and are used as census substitutes. One such set are the Griffiths records.

Griffiths sent clerks around the country to gather information for land valuation and tax purposes. The first survey, usually known as the primary valuation was conducted from 1848 – 1864. (The clerks started in the south of the country and worked their way north). They got to Moneygore in 1864 towards the end of the survey. They listed people with property with a rental value of £5 a year or more, and only heads of household are listed. Visitors, servants and all other adults not heads of household are excluded. So it is not a complete census. However in a farming community you get a fair view of who was there, and when they left or died. It also enables you to find a given property today, should you ever wish to do so. The primary valuation was put on-line some years ago and is available on this link:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith- ... nameSearch

If you use the place name search facility, you’ll see that there were 107 properties listed in Moneygore in 1864. 9 of them had Beattie/Beatty heads of household. (James, Anne, Alexander, William, Henry, Charles, Eliza, Robert & Mary). They were all close together indicative of common origins. Where a woman was listed as head of household, that usually indicated either that she was a widow or that it was an all female household.

In 1864, William Beatty is shown on plot 21b which he shared with Alexander Beatty on 21a, so very likely to be a brother. Plot 21 was between the modern Drumdreenagh and Moneygore roads, about a mile east of Rathfriland. Fairly easy to find today should you ever wish to do so, though I think the farmhouse itself is gone or abandoned. (There is no parish of Rathfriland, by the way. It is simply the nearest town to Moneygore. It’s actually in the parish of Drumgath). Looking at google earth, I can see that no-one lives on plot 21 any more. It’s still farming land but is in the middle of a big brown ploughed field. What may be the ruins of that Beattie farmhouse are surrounded by some shrubs in the middle of the field.

After the primary valuation, Griffiths clerks revisited each property every few years to record changes to the buildings, lands, tenants and immediate superior landlords. They noted these changes in a series of books, each of which covered approximately 10 – 12 years. These books cover the years 1864 – 1930. Dates of the various changes are normally recorded in the margins. A different colour was used for each year. Those records for the 6 counties in what is now Northern Ireland were put on line fairly recently, on the PRONI site you already have a link to. It takes a little while to get the knack of searching them. Each book has an index page at the beginning. There are 6 books covering Moneygore from 1864 to 1929. Moneygore starts on page 74 of the volume for 1894 to 1908. The next volume shows that the property changed from Isaac to Margaret in 1915 and then in 1918 it was described as in ruins. I looked at the last volume (ie up to 1929) VAL/12/B/22/20/F and see that Samuel Beatty was the tenant of plot 21 and several surrounding farms. The houses on plot 21 are gone and it is described as just land. So it looks as though several farms had been amalgamated into one big farm. (Which may still be in Beattie/Beatty hands today).


If you think that the 1851 census Isaac may be your family, then the relationship of nephew suggests that Margaret Wright’s maiden name was probably Beattie. So I’d be inclined to look for her death to get her parents names. I can see a possible in Bothwell for 1889. GROS 625/01/0188. You’ll know if that fits with the area the family lived in.

Regarding which church the family attended, Presbyterians in Ireland didn’t use the parish system and so it was a matter of personal preference which one you attended. And it wasn’t always the nearest to where you lived. In addition to the 2 churches I mentioned previously, I can see that there were 3 Presbyterian churches in Rathfriland itself, (the 1sts records start in 1827, the 2nds in 1804 and the 3rds in 1834). In addition there was a Reformed Presbyterian Church whose records only go back to 1857. The family could have attended any of those churches. (You can probably exclude the Reformed Presbyterian church as they normally recorded themselves as Reformed Presbyterian/Covenanter on the census forms, whereas your family appear to have been just Presbyterians). None of these churches records are on-line. Copies are held in PRONI on microfilm. A personal visit is required to search them.

That the family had a common Scottish surname, were Presbyterian and lived in Co Down tells you they originated in Scotland and probably settled in Co Down in the 1600s as a part of the mass migration from Scotland to Ireland at that time. They possibly came as a part of the Hamilton & Montgomery settlement. Many of those settlers came from Ayrshire are nearby counties. See:

http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/


Elwyn

[trish1]

Elwyn

Thank you so much - it will take me some time to digest all the information. I had a vague understanding of Griffiths - but not the updates - however, never as good an explanation as you have provided. I am researching the Beattie family for a friend - many of them migrated to Australia c. 1910 onwards - but I have always had trouble with Irish records - you are making it sound possible. My father's paternal roots are Irish & IF they told the truth on the Australian records (bit doubtful as some gave multiple places or origin on different records) I think I will go back and try them again.

I'm not sure why I didn't look for the death of Margaret Wright - perhaps I didn't find it?? - I will research that again. Presumably she is a sister of the parents of Charles, isaac etc - so 1 generation further back. I had thought the church records were not online - I will suggest to my friend that we pay to get them checked - not likely that we shall be in Ireland in the near future.

Thank you again for the help - very much appreciated.

Trish

Later: I found all the records from griffiths as you described - also found Moneygore in the index which I managed to miss earlier. One of the first names on the Moneygore page was Hillis - which is a given name for one of the Beatties who came to Australia - so it seems this is definitely the right family.

I checked the death of Margaret Wright - the death was more likely to be in Glasgow - but the likely one there had her age at 64 in 1864 - so I checked the 1851 census on Find my past - and discovered the ages I had for John and Margaret were wrong - another sigh. Margaret's parents are given as William Beattie and Mary M.S. Haines (I think). William is presumably the grandfather of the younger generation on the 1851 census.