I have 2 certificates but I am well & truly stumped!

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alysone
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Canada

I have 2 certificates but I am well & truly stumped!

Post by alysone » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:54 pm

Hi Everyone,
I have never been able to pin down my paternal grandmother's Welsh lineage. It came up again when her 87 year old son, my newly discovered uncle (that is another story altogether!) confirmed that she came from Anglesey. I have her marriage certificate to my grandfather in 1911. She was married before that to a Williams. I have a marriage certificate for 1907 which may well be that marriage. I am simply unsure & can't think how to prove that it is one way or another. If I post them to the gallery perhaps some of the Welsh folk might be able to offer me new ideas?
I should have mentioned that there was at least one child from the 1907 union & I have that certificate. I will post that also.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1334

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1335

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1337

Thanks, alysone

Gallery urls added by Marilyn

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:14 am

For "SS Afran" see http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/rb/ben. ... &which=139

See also http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=47857 .

"SS" had me fooled for a while, but it looks like it's an abbreviation for "Saints".

Everything fits between the 1911 and 1907 marriage certificates except for the bride's given name, - Jane becoming Veronica ............

Given the numbers of people with the surnames JONES and WILLIAMS in Wales I'd be wary of the link.

Have you looked for pre-1911 marriages of a Veronica?; or the death of Robert PARRY-JONES?

David

paddyscar
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Post by paddyscar » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:57 pm

Hi Alysone:

David raises the same points I was puzzling over.

Jane to Veronica is quite a jump, but the hyphenate Parry-Jones is the more concerning. Because the double surnames were developed to distinguish between the multitudes having the same surname, it is unlikely (to my thinking anyway) that:
  • 1) she would have registered her marriage without the full surname in 1907
    2) she would have named her father without using the full surname in the 1907 certificate as she does in the 1911
David - the S S had me wondering about what a Sailing Ship had to do with anything :lol: but then Catholic school came to the fore ... same abbreviation as for pages - pp.

Frances

Currie
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Post by Currie » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:13 pm

Hello Alysone,

On FreeBMD for Anglesey for the whole range of indexed years there are very few surnames “Parry-Jones” and “Parry Jones” and all are post 1899. They are outnumbered 100 to 1 by Jones who have Parry as the last middle name.

In addition to the points raised by David and Frances the occupations of Hugh Williams & Robert Jones aren’t very consistent on the various certificates and none of the three seem to be connected.

The name Veronica worries me. It isn’t very Welsh. On FreeBMD for Anglesey for the whole range of indexed years there are only about 10 Veronica events, BM&D, the first being in 1881. (first & middle names). (Better check all this because I am about as good at stats as I am at riding a bike).

Veronica seems to be relatively uncommon everywhere in the 1880s and even with a surname like Jones should have been fairly findable. Maybe Veronica wasn’t her real name.

Mine is the other Welsh name and I have found out heaps about my family history but only because in 1880 my Great Grandfather wrote down everything he knew about his family going back to the early 1700s. Without that I would have had absolutely zilch.

In three years or so yours is only the fifth post in the Welsh section and the first for twelve months. That might indicate that people either have all their history or are completely up the creek without even a question to ask.

I couldn’t turn up a marriage of a WILLIAMS/Veronica on freeBMD and index coverage is currently close to 100%.

Free BMD Deaths Robert Parry Jones 1885-1911 Anglesey – Might be worth checking census for these.

Deaths Mar 1906
JONES Robert Parry 81 Carnarvon 11b 303

Deaths Dec 1906
Jones Robert Parry 55 Carnarvon 11b 289

The district Carnarvon spans the boundaries of the counties of Anglesey and Caernarvonshire

This might be someone else interested but doesn’t appear to know any more http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... &id=I28350

I don’t like to discourage you but you will need a fair bit of luck on your side to pin this one down. But don’t give up, keep plugging away at it, and good luck.

Alan

alysone
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Location: Canada

Actually, it gets worse...

Post by alysone » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:55 pm

Thanks to all for the help,
Everything fits between the 1911 and 1907 marriage certificates except for the bride's given name, - Jane becoming Veronica ............
It was no joy, even turning up the 1911 marriage certificate, since I started with their son's birth certificate. On it the marriage date is given as 1907 instead of 1911, same day & month but different year. She could have also taken a new name when she married? The newly found uncle told me that Sylvia's true parentage was not "commonly known".
Have you looked for pre-1911 marriages of a Veronica?; or the death of Robert PARRY-JONES?
Yes, without success. I have one recent new clue: I was told by said uncle that Veronica returned to the UK to collect an inheritance about 1949. Thanks for the interesting geographical links, too.
Free BMD Deaths Robert Parry Jones 1885-1911 Anglesey – Might be worth checking census for these
I will go have a look at those now, thanks.
In three years or so yours is only the fifth post in the Welsh section and the first for twelve months. That might indicate that people either have all their history or are completely up the creek without even a question to ask.
This is a very apt description of how I feel every time I take another run at this thorny problem. The place names alone start me hyper-ventilating with anxiety. :cry: In any case, just hearing you say it is a difficult one cheers me since I have gotten nowhere fast over a considerable amount of time. alysone

Currie
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Post by Currie » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:17 am

Back again Alysone,

If you don’t have any luck with the census you could try posting more information. There’s always the chance someone might be able to help you untangle things.

If you’re not too keen on doing that, or you don’t think it would help, then at least be consoled by the fact that the 1911 census release is not all that far away.

It was held, I’ve read, on 2nd April, 1911, by which time your pair were married and probably had Sylvia with them, and, with a bit of luck, that might be just the breakthrough you need.

Alan

alysone
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Location: Canada

ah well...

Post by alysone » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:08 pm

Hi Alan,
I just did a bit of a tour again around Ancestry for the 1891 & 1901 Welsh census. I returned to the point I left it the last pass; there seem to be simply dozens of Jane Jones born in 1888-90 in Anglesey. (Sigh.) Back into the "end of the line for now" folder, I guess.
That is a good point about the 1911 census. My guess is they may well be back in Scotland by then, as one child's birth was in Berwick in 1915. The other line of attack might be to pin down Veronica's death date in Saskatchewan in the 1960's or 70's & apply for her DC? I hope to speak with the newly found uncle again soon and that will be my first question.
Part of gaining experience at tracing one's family seems to be learning when to push & when to back off. Thanks again, everyone. This has been really helpful. alysone

DavidWW
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Re: ah well...

Post by DavidWW » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:46 am

alysone wrote:....snipped........ The other line of attack might be to pin down Veronica's death date in Saskatchewan in the 1960's or 70's & apply for her DC? I hope to speak with the newly found uncle again soon and that will be my first question. .....snipped.........
Given the problems in continuing working further with the other research areas I'd strongly advise doing just this, since it is a known "fixed point" in her life.

Before spending the time and the money. however, I'd advise finding out what info is on such a DC, - in other words no point in spending the time and the money unless there's a chance of useful info.

David

alysone
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Canada

pinning down the death certificate

Post by alysone » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:36 am

Hi David,
Thanks for great advice. I spoke with my uncle today. He is quite frail and tires easily, being slated for heart surgery in a week. I did get around to asking his mother's death date but he was tired and couldn't remember. He said he would look it up for me. Here's hoping (& all fingers & toes crossed)! Once I have that, I will do as you suggest and find out what information is on a Sask. death certificate before I order it. alysone

JustJean
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Post by JustJean » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:58 am

This link shows a sample of a DC and where to order from....

http://www.health.gov.sk.ca/death-certificates

Not sure just how informative it would be.......

Best wishes
Jean

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