Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

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Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby jeannieb » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:18 pm

I found my 4th great-grandparents William and Harriet White (nee Stirton) on the 1891 Scotland Census they were both 71 years old, living with them was a 10-year-old girl named Ellen McIntosh (abt 1880-1881) she was listed as their granddaughter. I’m trying to sort out who Ellen’s parents are and why she would be living with the older grandparents. I would guess that her mother would be one of William and Harriet’s daughters and that she married a man with the surname McIntosh. On the 1881 Scotland Census for William and Harriet they had their daughter Janet White age 21 and granddaughter Helen McIntosh age 7 months living with them so it would appear that Ellen/Helen lived with them from the beginning.

They had 6 daughters so I manage to narrow it down to two Isabelle White and Helen Liston White the others had all married and had children and were living with their husband so I ruled them out for now. I did find a tree on Ancestry for an Isabelle White who married a George Kidd Scotland, there was a son listed named Robert McIntosh Scotland so there is the name McIntosh again. I have not been able to find any further information on Helen Liston White. It also accrued to me that their daughter Janet could also be Ellen/Helen’s mother since she was living with the child and her parents in 1881. But a death certificate for Janet confirms that she had been married to a man with the same surname a James White so now I’m completely confused.

Since Ellen/Helen lived with her grandparents at a very young age I wonder if it’s possible that her mother died during childbirth. I purchased a lot of credits from Scotlands people web page and tried searching for Helen but nothing not even a birth certificate I found certificates for a couple of her siblings but not her, there is no marriage, death or birth certificate found for her. I was also not able to narrow down a certificate of birth for Ellen McIntosh. Helen’s middle name was transcribed as Liston but I am now wondering if it might be Stirton, which is her mother’s maiden name and is the middle name of several of her siblings. I did try searching for a Helen Stirton White with no luck.

As you can see by my notes above this family is a little confusing I wonder if anyone would have any other suggestions on where I might look to narrow down Ellen McIntosh certificate of birth or even locate some information on Helen White. The 1861 Scotland census has Helen living with her family in Abercorn, Linlithgow; her father was a Gardner at Binns Lodge.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby AndrewP » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:58 pm

Hi JeannieB,

There is an answer on ScotlandsPeople for you. Look for Helen McIntosh, born 1880, North Leith. Looks like she was born illegitimate to Janet, and given her father's surname.

All the best,

AndrewP
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby jeannieb » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:29 pm

Hello Andrew:

Thank you for such a quick reply, I'll buy some more credits on Scotland People and see what I can find. I had previously looked for Ellen McIntosh maybe Helen's the key here.

Donna
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby jeannieb » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:40 pm

AndrewP wrote:Hi JeannieB,

There is an answer on ScotlandsPeople for you. Look for Helen McIntosh, born 1880, North Leith. Looks like she was born illegitimate to Janet, and given her father's surname.

All the best,

AndrewP


Hello Andrew:

Thanks again I just found her certificate of birth, I live in Canada so I don't know Scotland very well so searching can be a bit of a challenge if you don't know which area to search. I use 2 credits before I realized that I needed to changed the City are to find her. Its great that they name the father for a child born illegitimate here in Canada the early birth records never show the father the mothers are the only ones mentioned. Maybe I'll take another crack on trying to find Helen Liston White since I have some credits now.

Donna

Donna
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby AndrewP » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:53 am

jeannieb wrote:Its great that they name the father for a child born illegitimate here in Canada the early birth records never show the father the mothers are the only ones mentioned.

Hi Donna,

If the parents are unmarried, the father's name can only be given on a birth certificate if he goes to the registrar's office and signs his name as one of the informants of the birth. If he is not there, the mother cannot have the father's name written on the birth certificate. That rule exists to this day.

The only exception is if the mother goes to court to claim that the said man is the father of her child. The father is called to the court to confirm or deny this. If he is found to be the father, then an entry naming the father can be made in the Register of Corrected Entries as to append the original birth certificate. An annotation is then made on the birth certificate, usually in the left margin, to say that there is an entry in the Register of Corrected Entries (RCE) pertaining to that certificate. If there is such an RCE entry, then it can be viewed on ScotlandsPeople for an additional 2 credits.

All the best,

AndrewP
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby jeannieb » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:10 am

Thanks again Andrew:

His name actually is right above Janet's on the certificate if I didn't see illegitimate right under Helen's I would have not known that she was illegitimate. If Janet did go to court to get the father David McIntosh to put his name on the certificate that's a pretty decent thing to do than why would she not raise her own child I can't figure that one out. I guess I'll never know since they are all long gone. There is something in brackets under David's name but I can't make it out it has his name, his occupation as stonemason and than something in brackets.

I found Helen's marriage certificate and she has both her parents names listed on her marriage certificate as well so she knew who her parents were yet not one of them raised her. Thanks to you I was able to found out who Helen's parents were and what happen to her she married a man named Peter Hutchison in Jul 1900.

Donna
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby AndrewP » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:38 am

Hi Donna,

The father turned up on the day to sign the register to show that he was indeed the father. So there was no court case to find paternity in this case. If it had been determined at a court case, the father's name and signature would not have been on the original certificate that we see on ScotlandsPeople. It would have shown only the mother's name in the 'Parents' names' section on the certificate. The father's name would only have been given in the entry in the Register of Corrected Entries (which does not exist in this case).

I read the certificate as follows:
    Helen McIntosh (illegitimate)
    1880 August Twenty Fourth 4h PM
    2 North Fort Street, Place, Leith
    F
    David McIntosh, Stonemason (journeyman) (Domicile 68 Kirkgate, South Leith)
    Janet White, Domestic Servant
    Janet White, Mother; David McIntosh, Father
    1880 September 13th at North Leith. Sighe(?) Forman, Registrar
Apart from the word illegitimate appearing on the certificate, if the couple had been married, the mother would have been listed as Janet McIntosh, M.S. White, [place and date of marriage]. As the couple have different surnames, no maiden surname shown and no marriage shown; these taken together show that the couple were not married, and hence the child was born illegitimate. The word illegitimate was considered quite a stigma, so at a date I cannot recall (early 20th century), the practice of writing 'illegitimate' on a birth certificate was stopped. From then onwards, you would know the child was illegitimate by the different surnames and the absence of a maiden surname and marriage details.

All the best,

AndrewP
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby nelmit » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:01 am

I'm glad you got wee Ellen sorted with Andrew's help.

If I've read your post correctly you are also wondering what happened to Helen senior here she is in 1881 at Rothesay.

Thos Wm Alexander 37
Agnes Alexander 29
James A Alexander 4
Agnes Alexander 2
Elizabeth M Alexander 1
Helen White 25 born Abercorn, Sevant.
Robina Morrison 16

I'm pretty sure this his her later and looks like she married twice.

1891 - Shotts, Lanarkshire

James McCabe 33
Helen McCabe 33 born Abercorn
James McCabe 4
Archibald D McCabe 3
William McCabe 6 Mo

1901 - Shotts, Lanarkshire

William Mackie 35
Helen W Mackie 42 born Abercorn
James Mccabe 14
Archibald Mccabe 13
William Mccabe 10
Edward Mccabe 8
Nisbet Mackie 4

Regards,
Annette
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby jeannieb » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:17 pm

Hello Annette:

Thank you Annette, every time I come here I get so much help. I thought I would search for Nisbet Mackie since he was the youngest I found a passenger list for him coming to Canada to meet his brother James Mccabe in Toronto, which is where their mother's brother my ggg-grandfather lived and according to Jame's address they lived very close to their uncle. So this has opened up a lot of info for me. It will be interesting to see if Helen also came to Canada. I'm going to check the Toronto Sun/Globe now and see if I can find obits for these men. This is great, thanks.

Update: I found Helen Mackie in Toronto she is buried with her son Nisbet and his wife Catherine in Toronto. Thanks again Annette I would have never thought to look for her in Toronto.

Donna
Last edited by jeannieb on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who are Ellen McIntosh's parents

Postby jeannieb » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:28 pm

Thanks Andrew, I would have never guessed it said journeyman. The marriage certificate her mother as Janet White formerly McIntosh or so it looks like it would appear she wanted to make it look like her parents were married.

AndrewP wrote:Hi Donna,

The father turned up on the day to sign the register to show that he was indeed the father. So there was no court case to find paternity in this case. If it had been determined at a court case, the father's name and signature would not have been on the original certificate that we see on ScotlandsPeople. It would have shown only the mother's name in the 'Parents' names' section on the certificate. The father's name would only have been given in the entry in the Register of Corrected Entries (which does not exist in this case).

I read the certificate as follows:
    Helen McIntosh (illegitimate)
    1880 August Twenty Fourth 4h PM
    2 North Fort Street, Place, Leith
    F
    David McIntosh, Stonemason (journeyman) (Domicile 68 Kirkgate, South Leith)
    Janet White, Domestic Servant
    Janet White, Mother; David McIntosh, Father
    1880 September 13th at North Leith. Sighe(?) Forman, Registrar
Apart from the word illegitimate appearing on the certificate, if the couple had been married, the mother would have been listed as Janet McIntosh, M.S. White, [place and date of marriage]. As the couple have different surnames, no maiden surname shown and no marriage shown; these taken together show that the couple were not married, and hence the child was born illegitimate. The word illegitimate was considered quite a stigma, so at a date I cannot recall (early 20th century), the practice of writing 'illegitimate' on a birth certificate was stopped. From then onwards, you would know the child was illegitimate by the different surnames and the absence of a maiden surname and marriage details.

All the best,

AndrewP
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