ASSISTANCE SOUGHT - ON-LINE NATIONAL ARCHIVE SEARCH

q98 · Post by **q98** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:32 pm

For weeks now, I have attempted to locate a document at National Archives website but I appear to be going round in circles - GETTING DIZZY AND FRUSTRATED.

I wish to locate the ORIGINAL citation for an O.B.E. awarded to my great-uncle William McCreadie, Master, Merchant Navy. The award is listed on his Medal Card and was also gazetted; Gazette Issue 36547 published 2 June 1944, page 2 of 16. 2668 Supplement to the London Gazette, 10 June 1944.

Would there be available to search on my behalf an individual who is familiar with the internal workings of the NA databases? I also realise the citation may not be available but would be extremely grateful to anyone who could assist and "point" me to the link where, if available, it could be downloaded after payment.

Kindest regards

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:48 pm

Hello Jim,

Here’s a brief discussion re O.B.E. recommendation/citation availability on the British Medal Forum. You’ll probably find other interesting O.B.E. etc stuff there. According to one poster the Recommendations are in the WO373 series but they’re talking about military awardees. It might be worthwhile trying that forum if you don’t have any luck here.
http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewto ... 7a09b16fc4

Are you sure that National Archives has Civil Division recommendations and citations? I’m no expert but the only thing I could find was this page which I guess would be for the normal Campaign Medals?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... ultcount=7

Archive’s Recommendations for Honours and Awards 1935 - 1980, which refers to Military OBEs is stated to be a joint project by The National Archives and the Ministry of Defence. So I wonder where that leaves the Civil Division.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... /wo373.asp

The Merchant Navy O.B.E.’s were Civil Division. Where are the records of all the other civilian O.B.E.’s awarded since its inception, pre war and post war? Can’t think of any reason why the WW2 records would be separate or why they would have anything to do with the Ministry of Defence. Maybe the holder of more recent civilian O.B.E. records still holds the old records?

If nothing better turns up you might end up having to contact Archives to see if they do hold the Civil Division records or if they know who has them.

By the way, I checked the London Times in case there was some mention there, but no luck. I guess there was too much else happening at the time. I did see articles regarding the Carlbeath rescue dated 24 November, 1926 and 9 August, 1927. Do you have both of these?

I hope there’s something useful in there somewhere.
All the best,
Alan

q98 · Post by **q98** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:08 pm

G'day Currie mate

Thanks for those links which I will check out shortly. I returned again this afternoon to the NA site to discover a new "look" - easier to search. I have an original cutting from "The Peoples Journal" dated November 27, 1926 and noted that William's surname is mis-spelled. I should be VERY interested in the 9 August 1927 article if you could oblige.

At the NA website, I have located and paid for a document regarding my grandfather Edward (William's brother and also a Master, Merchant Navy) who apparently was involved in "Special Operations" during 1944-1945. My grandpa was the Master of "SS Empire Celt", Convoy ON-67 (frequently incorrectly referred to as "ONS-67), torpedoed and sunk by U-158 off Newfoundland on 24 Feb 1942. My grandpa had six brothers; Robert (died in 1915 on the Western Front), William, James and Peter (all Masters, Merchant Navy) - James and Peter died during Second World War.

As my great-grandparents William and Elizabeth McCreadie emigrated to NZ with several other children in 1924, there were two more brothers who fought in North Africa with the NZ Army. All of the immigrant McCreadie's are buried in Andersons Bay Cemetery, Dunedin.

Again mate, I'd be extremely interested in the 9 August 1927 article if you could oblige.

Kind regards and greetings from the West.

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:14 am

Back again Jim,

In case there was some difference to the one you have I’ve pasted the text of both articles.
I ran the article images through an OCR program and then cleaned up the results so there wasn’t much typing involved.

The name McCreadie appears over 250 times in the London Times between 1910 and 1985 and there are some other scattered minor references to the Carlbeath. It might be worthwhile if you looked at this database. You might be able to get access from home through your local library or you could try this link and follow your nose. (site appears to be down at the moment). http://www.galaxy.bedfordshire.gov.uk/c ... qtype=GALE

The Merchant Marine was an extremely dangerous occupation during WW2 and it would be interesting to know the mortality rate compared to the other services.

Alan

GERMAN CREW RESCUED.
TRIBUTE TO BRITISH CAPTAIN'S GALLANTRY.
(FROM OUR CORRESPONDENT.)
WEYMOUTH, Nov. 23.
The crew of seven of the German schooner Anne Marie were landed at Weymouth yesterday by the Glasgow steamer Carlbeath, bound from Rotterdam to Marseilles with coal. The Anne Marie was in distress in the North Sea and the Carlbeath was manoeuvred alongside so that the Germans were able to leap aboard. It was too rough to launch the lifeboats. The Anne Marie was waterlogged, and the crew had been labouring for two days to pump the water out. The Carlbeath met heavy gales in the Channel, and reached Weymouth 12 hours after her time.
The German schooner's bows were deep in the water when the rope which a German tug had put aboard her parted. The tug then sent out an S.O.S. call, which was picked up by the seven steamers. The Carlbeath was the first to arrive. Her skipper, Captain Macready, thus described the event: “I thought it best to keep as close as I could to her and pass under her stern to give the crew a chance to jump on my boat. We were successful in this, but it was touch and go and we missed the Anne Marie by inches. Most of the German crew were practically naked and in such a state of exhaustion that it was some time before we could get any sense out of them. If somebody offered me £1,000 to do it again I should refuse. It was a 100 to 1 chance, but luckily it came off."
Baron Benno von Stulpnagel, the owner of the German vessel, in which he was serving as second mate, was formerly a district commissioner in German East Africa and aide-de-camp to General von Hindenburg. Yesterday afternoon he told me he had telegraphed to President Hindenburg calling his attention to the British captain's gallantry
LONDON TIMES, 24 November, 1926.

GERMAN CREW RESCUED IN NORTH SEA.
GALLANT ACTION OF BRITISH MASTER.
The Imperial Merchant Service Guild has been in communication with the German Embassy regarding the services rendered last November by the British steamer Carlbeath, under the command of Captain W. McCreadie, in rescuing the captain and crew in very heavy weather in the North Sea of the German schooner Annemarie. The owner of the schooner, Baron A. D. Benno von Stulpnagel, was on board at the time, and described the rescue as quite the most wonderful piece of seamanship he had ever witnessed. The baron during the Great War acted as aide-de-camp to General von Hindenburg, and was formerly District Commissioner in German East Africa, while the master of the schooner, Herr Willy Kreutner, served in German destroyers during the war, and was concerned in ten engagements with the British.
The schooner was in a desperate position when the Carlbeath fell in with her, all her boats having been swept away and the deck-houses smashed in. In the tremendous sea which was running it was found impossible to launch a boat, and Captain McCreadie decided to take the risk of passing close under the stern of the wreck at slow speed, shouting to all to jump. The Carlbeath actually touched the schooner as she swept past, but all managed to scramble on board from the wreck. Most of the German seamen were practically naked and in a terrible state of exhaustion, but soon came round after being cared for on board the Carlbeath. The German Embassy has now informed the Guild that the German Government have decided to award to Captain McCreadie a valuable marine glass in recognition of his heroic deed.
LONDON TIMES, 9 August, 1927.

q98 · Post by **q98** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:04 pm

Hi Alan
Many, many thanks for those articles. Now I'll have to go to the Times website and search!!!!! The article I have is from "The Peoples Journal" not as prestigious at the Times of London.

My great-uncle was presented with a pair of Zeiss binoculars with an engraved small brass plate with Von Hindenburg's name on it.

Thanks again mate.

Jim

erika · Post by **erika** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:10 am

Hello Jim McCreadie!
Many thanks for the posting of the article about the rescue of the Anne Marie by Carlbeath. Baron von Stulpnagel, the owner of the Anne Marie was my father so I have long known this story and it was nice to have your posting to pass on to my children and grandchildren. I remember that my father said the handling of the Carlbeath in that hurricane was an unbelievable feat of seamanship, and that one of the ones rrescued was his little dachshund that also jumped to safety. I still keep the few objects he stuffed in his pocket from his cabin before the rescue, a soap dish, bottle and silver brush from a dresser set...thanks again, Erika von Stulpnagel

q98 · Post by **q98** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:57 am

Erika

Your e-mail made my day; what a Christmas present for me =D> ! I would be extremely pleased to hear from you at my home e-mail address

jim.mccreadie[AT]bigpond.com Of course, change [AT] to the normal little sign used in e-mails.

I have quite a collection of data on my grandfather and his brothers including William which I would be very pleased to share with you and your family. I can burn the data to CD and post.

Many thanks again for contacting me.

Sincerely yours

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:00 am

Hello Erika, and welcome to TalkingScot.

I found a Google book earlier today which has a story about the 1926 rescue. It’s written in German and I can only get a bit of an idea of what it’s all about. It seems to cover at least five pages and includes at least one picture which can’t be seen online. http://books.google.com.au/books?um=1&q ... arch+Books

It seems to be available on the internet only in snippet form. It is possible to assemble at least part of the story from these snippets and by using the text of search results. It’s a bit like doing a jig-saw puzzle.

Here are a few lines of what I’ve managed to extract so far:

…… „Carlbeath" hatte die Mannschaft der „Anne-Marie" gerettet. Es war wohl mit eine der größten seemännischen Taten, die der Kapitän Mac Radies vollbracht hatte. Mac Radies hatte sein Schiff selbst in die größte Gefahr gebracht, die mit Steinen geladene „Anne-Marie" konnte nämlich mit ihrer Schwere dem Dampfer längsseits die Platten einschlagen und ihm so zum W…….

…….. Am nachsten Tag fullten spalten Berichte englische Zeitungen mit Ueberschriften wie: „A Stirring Story of the sea was unfolded at Weymouth to-day when the British steamer Carlbeath landed the crew of the German schooner Anne Marie which was in distress in the North Sea in one of the worst hurricanes in history.”
Auf der “Carlbeath” ist jeder bereit gewesen, sein Aeuberstes herzugeben ………..

I thought I had better check whether you or Jim had seen the book, or possessed a copy, or could easily get hold of one, before I did any more work on it.

All the best,
Alan

q98 · Post by **q98** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:31 am

Aha Alan

You were aware of the latest on this topic =D> . I'd sent you a PM to bring you up to speed - isn't it simply amazing $\:D/$ !
I must admit I haven't seen or located the book so anything you can get would be appreciated.

I am hoping Erika will get back to me as I have tunza data on the rescue from a British perspective and I should enjoy
seeing how it was reported in Germany. I also have one photograph each of William and SS Carlbeath.

Kind regards and warmest wishes of the Season from sunny W.A.

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:50 am

Thanks Jim,

And the same to you from a sunny but nice and cool today NSW.

I’ll see how I go with the book and let you know.

All the best,
Alan

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