Apprentices before 1860 in Scotland

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Apprentices before 1860 in Scotland

Postby littlealison » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:49 pm

Is there any source to find records of apprentices in the years before 1860 in the nineteenth century?
Probably:
a) John Little the first, b 1812 in Glasgow, then going to Dumbarton, must have finished his apprenticeship by 1832 there, when the glassworks closed for six years. He was in Alloa and then came back to Dumbarton by 1841.

b) John Little his son, b 1841 in Dumbarton, should have done his in Glasgow, finishing in 1860, when he married and moved to Edinburgh, recorded as journeyman glassmaker there.

So far that's as close as I can get......
Researching:
LITTLE - Scotland, Lancashire, Dublin and South Africa. And Canada.
RITCHIE, BARR - Scotland
ANDREWS, MEMERY, DOWSE and BIRMINGHAM - Dublin
PRICE, JACKSON, ROGERS, ALLEN - N. Wales
littlealison
 
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Re: Apprentices before 1860 in Scotland

Postby Currie » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:50 am

Hello Alison,

I doubt I’ll be much help. I haven’t really delved into apprenticeship history. The National Archives page on Apprentices may be worth a read. It’s possible formal records weren’t kept. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... ecords.htm

Slightly off topic, here’s an interesting book “The Industries of Scotland” etc, published 1869, which has a section on glass. I can’t remember whether it has come to light before. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uCQ ... 22&f=false

All the best,
Alan
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Re: Apprentices before 1860 in Scotland

Postby littlealison » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:05 pm

I finally managed to access that book, Alan - last time I was here I couldn't get into it! Interesting, as it is just before great changes in glass technology - ie first the use of gas to heat the glass and then a few yearas later, the change to great tanks for continuous production, instead of pots.

But back to apprentices....I have been wondering what it cost to apprentice your children to a trade? My ggg-grandfather was recorded as a labourer, but seems to have managed to apprentice at least three of his boys to the bottle work, and I wonder how he did this!
Researching:
LITTLE - Scotland, Lancashire, Dublin and South Africa. And Canada.
RITCHIE, BARR - Scotland
ANDREWS, MEMERY, DOWSE and BIRMINGHAM - Dublin
PRICE, JACKSON, ROGERS, ALLEN - N. Wales
littlealison
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Oxfordshire , UK

Re: Apprentices before 1860 in Scotland

Postby LesleyB » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:53 pm

Hi littleallison

From memory, I think many apprentices were taken on and given training without actual payment - they were just given their bed and board in exchange for work.

Best wishes
Lesley
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Re: Apprentices before 1860 in Scotland

Postby Currie » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:55 am

You see quite a few advertisements in the old newspapers for apprentices, “Wanted, good reliable boy for apprentice whatever” and that sort of thing. I can’t recall seeing money mentioned. If it was to be a proper apprenticeship, one legally binding with indentures, and if the boy was a minor, then a parent’s signature would have been required. I suppose that if the father was in the trade it would have been easier to get his sons signed up.

Here are some of the joys of being an apprentice in the bottle business.

Glasgow Herald, Thursday, December 15, 1859
CAUTION TO WORKMEN.—Yesterday, at the Justice of Peace Court—before James Craig, Esq., and James Gibson, .Esq., Justices—John M'Lean, apprentice bottle-blower in the employment of Messrs. Borron, Price & Co., was convicted of having deserted his employment, and sent to prison for three months.—Joseph M’Lean, Joseph Pilly, and Charles Canning, workmen in the employment of the above-named firm, were also convicted of having deserted their employment, and each sentenced to two months' imprisonment. —Hugh M’Lachlan and James M’Garvay, apprentice bottle-blowers, in the employment of the Clyde Bottle Work Company, were convicted of having deserted their employment. They were sentenced, the former to 30 and the latter to 21 days' imprisonment.

Glasgow Herald, Friday, April 17, 1874
MASTER AND SERVANT ACT. —Yesterday— before Sheriff Murray—an apprentice bottle-blower, named Samuel Wyld, pleaded guilty to having, on the 16th February last, deserted from the employment of Mr Arch. Stevenson, jun., glass manufacturer, Garngadhill. The Sheriff ordained the defendant to return to his work and fulfil his contract, and to find caution for so doing within 14 days, and found him liable in £3 3s of expenses,

The Pall Mall Gazette (London), Monday, February 14, 1876
A decision of much importance as affecting the relation of masters and apprentices was given in the Glasgow Small Debt Court a few days ago. An apprentice bottle-maker sought to recover from his former employer wages under an expired indenture. It appeared that the pursuer had been imprisoned under the Master and Servant Act, and it was argued that he had in this manner wiped off all scores against him, so that he was in a position to sue. On behalf of the defender it was urged that by his breach of the civil contract which existed between the parties, the pursuer had debarred himself from all claim for wages. The view taken of the case by the judge was that the composition given under the quasi-criminal proceedings did not affect the wages at all. Over and above that composition, however, the breach of indenture had per se destroyed all title of the pursuer to wages of any kind under the indenture.

All the best,
Alan
Currie
 
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Location: Australia

Re: Apprentices before 1860 in Scotland

Postby littlealison » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:42 pm

I am not getting my notifications again!
I'd seen the first extract but not the others, Alan. Do you thing they had become less harsh on the apprentices between 1859 and 1876? Looks like it!
The expenses are really a punishment though...several weeks wages.
So it was just a contract? Where have I got the idea that a payment was involved?

I have read somewhere that it wasn't possible to be an apprentice bottlemaker without a member of the family in the trade....so I deduce that the older John Little's father Thomas, down as 'labourer', must have been a labourer in a bottle works.
Also that a man would not be accepted as foreman or manager unless he had worked his way up!
Cheers, Alan - Alison
Researching:
LITTLE - Scotland, Lancashire, Dublin and South Africa. And Canada.
RITCHIE, BARR - Scotland
ANDREWS, MEMERY, DOWSE and BIRMINGHAM - Dublin
PRICE, JACKSON, ROGERS, ALLEN - N. Wales
littlealison
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Oxfordshire , UK

Re: Apprentices before 1860 in Scotland

Postby Currie » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:10 pm

Alison,

They brought in a new Master and Servant Act in 1867 which possibly made the difference, although it, and its implementation, was still weighted heavily in favour of the employer.

All the best,
Alan
Currie
 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia


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