brick wall

[kenspeckle]

Hi can anyone say if in 1862 if parents were deceased it would be noted on marriage cert ? the other marriage on the page has no dec parents

I have a real brick wall my ggg grannie Mary Ann /Maryan Mercer in census says she was born Kelso abt 1832 but no birth or christening to be found
she married 30th Jun 1862 age 28 puts her birth at 1834 stating her parents William Mercer occ. labourer and mother Jane Mercer her hubby John Thomas Martin a Refreshment House Keeper he was born in Kendal England
her death in April 1882 has her age as 49 makes age c 1833 her parents are noted as William Mercer occ. Forrester and Jane Mercer maiden surname Mercer informant is her daughter Mary Ann Wilkie nee Stewart my GG Grannie

I have gone through every Mercer in the census 1841 scotland england & wales trying just Mary Ann in case the surname in transcribed wrongly I have tried just Mercer William Mercer Jane & Janet and can find no one 1841 or 1851 ???? the ONLY close match is what looks like a brother and sister children of a Baillie Mercer but this is Berwick she always says b Kelso / Roxburghshire in census

on the map Earlstown is near Kelso I am thinking maybe the brother and sister could be her parents which may account for no christening or birth record
any ideas help very much appreciated

1841 Name: William Mercer
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Gender: Male
Where born: Berwickshire, Scotland
Civil parish: Earlston
County: Berwickshire
Address: Mellerstain Mill
Occupation: Ag Lab
Parish Number: 736
Baillie Mercer 75
Jane Mercer 45 ( b 14 Jun 1794 )
William Mercer 35 ( b 24 Sep 1801 )


1851
Name: William Mercer
Age: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1803
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Earlstown, Berwick
Parish Number: 736
Civil parish: Earlston
Town: Mellerstain
County: Berwickshire
Address: Mellerstain
Occupation: Farm Servant
ED: 2
Page: 17
Household schedule number: 54
Line: 15
Roll: CSSCT1851_196
William Mercer 48
Jane Mercer 55 b Earlstown, Berwick abt 1796

and 1851
Mary Ann Mercer
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: Berwick Upon Tweed
Town: Berwick Upon Tweed
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

(MY) Mary Ann (for certain) Mercer was in Canongate 1861 census age 27 she had an illegit child Mary ann Mercer Stewart to a Donald Stewart in Edinburgh 1857 and he signed the birth cert she was possibly working for her Husband in 1861 as she was noted as an eating house keeper and they married in 1862

[Montrose Budie]

Hi can anyone say if in 1862 if parents were deceased it would be noted on marriage cert ? the other marriage on the page has no dec parents

.....much snipped........

The guidance to registrars in Scotland was that it should be noted if the parents were deceased; but we're still talking fairly early days in terms of statutory registration, which began in 1855 in Scotland, so that not every registrar, couple and officiating minister got things right in the first few years.


Remember as well that the marriage registration process was quite different compared to births and deaths. For the latter the informant turned up at the registrar's office, and the entry in the Register Book was made there and then.


For a marriage, however, one of the couple would turn up at the registrar's office with the certificate of banns, and be given the marriage schedule.

The exact process from there on is unclear in the sense of who and when partially filled in the schedule, - the registrar and/or the couple and/or the officiating minister.

Whatever, the schedule was then finally completed and signed by the officiating minister after the ceremony had taken place. For a church marriage this was one of the things done when the couple disappeared into the vestry before coming down the aisle as a married couple.


The schedule was then returned to the registrar, - traditionally the duty of the best man; and the registrar engrossed (transcribed) the info from the schedule into his Register Books of Marriages, - there were two; one to be sent to Edinburgh early in the new year, and a duplicate kept by the registrar, - some registrars still have them back to 1855.


One consequence is that the signatures shown on marriage register entries, with the exception of marriages by declaration via the presentation to the registrar of a Sheriff's Warrant or similar document, are not the signatures of your ancestors, but the transcription by the registrar of the signatures from the marriage schedule.

This in contrast to entries in the Register Books of Birth and Deaths where the signatures are those of the informant, i.e. your ancestor.


The original marriage schedules still survive, but only in exceptional situations is access now allowed by the Registrar General for Scotland; for example, a legal need to see the signature of a person involved that cannot be obtained from another source.


Certainly in later years the information on whether or not the parents of the bride and groom were deceased at the time of the marriage is generally reliable in the Scottish records; unlike in England where it is generally accepted that the info is unreliable.


It's one of those difficult areas in Scottish research where something is generally the case to a high level of probability, - maybe ca. 97% in later decades, but still can't be relied on 100%; and somewhat less reliable in the first years of statutory registration.

As with other information, all that was required for an error to creep in was a misunderstanding of the question being posed.


In your case, I'd also advise research on the basis that the info re the parents being deceased or not is incorrect.

mb

[kenspeckle]

Hi MB thank you for an very informative reply.... I have this basic gut instinct that the Berwick folk are not hers even though they seem to be the only William & Jane Mercer in the whole of UK under the same roof but then the next minute I am thinking it is possible ...(clutching at straws methinks )

I got(that Earlston) William's death cert and see what his occupation was in 1866 when he died He was a proprietor of land
My GGG Grans daughter had her mothers father noted as a Forrester on her mothers death cert I am not quite sure exactly what a Forrester is..... I think its a sort of gamekeeper which may account for them not turning up in census

and there is a 1 page Testament Dative and a 5 page inventory which I got but no clues only that his sister was still alive


I have looked everywhere thinking maybe her parents died before 1841 census and she was brought up by relatives but nothing anywhere GRRRRR !

[LesleyB]

I am not quite sure exactly what a Forrester is..... I think its a sort of gamekeeper which may account for them not turning up in census

My understanding of a forrester is generally someone who manages a forest - the cutting down and planting of trees and management of the land in the forest, probably on an estate or similar. Possibly also involving looking out for poachers and the like who may be interested in the deer and other edible wildlife!

Best wishes
Lesley