Help to find a marriage or death

Birth, Marriage, Death

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crayspond
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Location: Reading UK

Help to find a marriage or death

Post by crayspond » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:04 pm

Hello TS,
I am trying to trace what happened to Catherine McPhee jnr ,if she married and if she had any children .Her mother, my gt grandmother was also Catherine McPhee.
There have been a few posts on this site over the years about my gt grandmother.. Her maiden name was Wright. She was born on 29th Nov 1865 in Rose St Hutchesontown Glasgow She had my grandfather Thomas Beveridge in 1884 she did not marry his father David Beveridge but he was named as the father on the birth certificate.
She was living with her parents along with Thomas at 108 Thistle St Glasgow until 1891 when she married Michael McGinty. Sadly Michael died in 1892 age 27.
She then married John McPhee 30/12/1892 in Bridgeton Glasgow.
On the 1901 census they are living at 120 South Wellington St Hutchesontown Glasgow. Thomas is with them along with Sons John, Patrick, and Malcolm and daughter Catherine
Sadly I recently discovered that all three sons were killed in WW1.None had married. That only left her son Thomas (my grandfather) and Catherine her only daughter. I already know about Thomas but I would like to find out what happened to Catherine jnr to see what happened to her.
The 1911 census has Catherine McPhee snr as head Malcolm 11 and Catherine 12. Living at 194 Main St Tradeston Glasgow.
Next sighting of her is on the army records of her brother John when his medals were issued (thanks to AndrewP for this info). These were dated 1920 and 1921 and Catherine is noted as age 20 living at 220 Thistle St with mother Catherine.
I am going to look for a marriage first using this search – It brings up 85 results
: Surname: 'McPhee', Surname Option: 'Fuzzy', Forename: 'Catherine', Forename Option: 'Fuzzy', From_year: '1911', To_year: '1931
I don’t like to think that she died after 1921 but Catherine Snr died in 1931 and Thomas was the witness. Thomas died a year later in 1932. Would be good to have some happy news of this family!
Any suggestions welcome. Maybe we can narrow it down to a few before I look at them.
Thanks for reading.
Ailsa

AndrewP
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Re: Help to find a marriage or death

Post by AndrewP » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:35 pm

Hi Ailsa,

I have had a look at ScotlandsPeople deaths using the following criteria:

Surname: m*phee
Given name: ?ath*r?n*
Birth year: 1899 +/- 2 years
Year of death: 1918 to 2017

That gives 15 results. If you discount the ones with a mother's maiden surname given (none of these were "Wright"), and the ones with middle names, that brings you down to 8 records. Then if you look at where the death was registered, 4 of them were in Glasgow. I would select these as the most likely lot to find her in. Although, it could equally be none of them. It also assumes that the person registering her death knew the correct details to give the registrar. Another assumption is that she remained in Scotland.

If you change the search surname to m*fee, then you get 2 results, both in the Dundee area.

Food for thought,

AndrewP

crayspond
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Location: Reading UK

Re: Help to find a marriage or death

Post by crayspond » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:25 pm

Hi AndrewP,
Thanks for helping. I'm looking at them now. I would have assumed if she lived until she was in her 60s and 70s she might have married and therefore her name would have changed. The first one looked likely but Howmore is in the Hebrides. I will try and whittle down the Marriages to Glasgow. Do you think?

AndrewP
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Re: Help to find a marriage or death

Post by AndrewP » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 pm

Hi Ailsa,

If she was married, her death would be indexed under both surnames: single and married. Any surnames used through life should be on the death registration, and hence on the ScotlandsPeople index.

As an example, Catherine McPhee who died aged 68 in 1967 in Glasgow was also registered as Catherine Smith. That gives options such as:
  1. born Catherine McPhee, married a Mr Smith
  2. born Catherine Smith, married a Mr McPhee
  3. unmarried, born to unmarried couple Mr Smith and Ms McPhee
  4. unmarried, born to unmarried couple Mr McPhee and Ms Smith
The only way to see which of these is correct is to pay your money and look at the certificate. There is nothing in the index that will indicate where either the Smith or McPhee surnames came into her life.

To find what surnames she was registered under, I used some of the information found when searching for Catherine McPhee. That search showed one of the possible people to be the 68-year-old who died in Glasgow in 1967. So I searched for a Catherine who died in Glasgow in 1967, aged 68, without putting a surname in. Even for a highly populated area as Glasgow, that search produced only 12 results. On looking at Catherine McPhee there, I could see her reference number, and looking at the other 11 records listed, looked for a repeat of that reference number. The repeat was there for Catherine Smith. Therefore these two entries in the index lead to the same death certificate (the same person).

On looking back at the 15 from the initial search given in my post above, I see it is only 3 who were in Glasgow city (who had no middle name, and no mother's maiden name given [none of these were Wright]). Of these, only the one given above could have been born in 1899 (the others were 1897 or 1898). So if all the data given to the registrar was accurate, then she would be the one that I would pick as first to look at the certificate.

Another angle to look at this Catherine McPhee, is to look for a Catherine McPhee marrying a Mr Smith. There are two such marriages in Glasgow (both in Gorbals, both in the early 1940s). The other permutation is that the Catherine McPhee on that death certificate was a Catherine Smith who married a Mr McPhee. The only such marriages for that possibility have a Catherine with a middle name, something that your Catherine didn't show up with in her birth or census records; so I would put those ones to the side. So, if you take your best guess that she did marry, then if this was my search, I would be taking a look at the death certificate of the one I have used as an example here, hoping that she shows up as Catherine Smith, maiden surname McPhee, born to Catherine Wright. It is up to you if you want to go with that gamble. To me it is the gamble with the best odds, but like any gamble, I cannot tell you if it is going to be the winner.

If that does prove to be her, and she was married, it should give her husband's full name. Then you can seek the matching marriage certificate.

On looking through the records for a married woman, I find it is usually easier to find her death first, and then her marriage. The time to find the marriage first is if the bride was from a rural district with a small population, on the basis that she probably married there. However, as your Catherine McPhee was from Glasgow this method does not apply unless you want to risk many ScotlandsPeople credits.

All the best,

AndrewP

crayspond
Posts: 614
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Location: Reading UK

Re: Help to find a marriage or death

Post by crayspond » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:32 pm

Hi AndrewP,
Sorry I've been out helping mend the roof of our porch all day - it would be on the hottest day and sunniest that we've had here in South Oxfordshire this year!
Anyway- you are indeed a marvel! Here it is

Image

I'm not sure if it's a RCE or jusr a more modern certificate, also having difficulty reading his middle name and occupation - it looks like Samuel Tartan Smith saddle tree maker? She was maybe visiting someone in Clydebank when she died as her usual address is 27 Toryglen St Glasgow.
I'll follow it up later on just wanted to let you know and thank you again for your wise wisdom.

Ailsa

crayspond
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Location: Reading UK

Re: Help to find a marriage or death

Post by crayspond » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:45 pm

Can someone tell me if they could open the link to Catherine McPhee's death cert?
Thanks

garibaldired
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Re: Help to find a marriage or death

Post by garibaldired » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:59 pm

No I couldn't. It took me to SP but said Access Denied.

Meg

AndrewP
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Re: Help to find a marriage or death

Post by AndrewP » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:59 pm

Hi Ailsa,

The certificate on that link can only be viewed by you, as the person who paid for it. As part of the copyright conditions, you are not allowed to put the complete certificate up on any other website.

However, if you scanned a portion or two of it and put that online (such as attaching it to your post here), my understanding is that is not so much of an issue.

Saying that, from the information that you have made out, that is easily related to one of the two marriages in the 1940s in the Gorbals. Catherine McPhee and Samuel Turtan Smith. From that his death is easily found.

Saddle tree maker is probably correct. A saddle tree is the wooden framework of a traditional leather saddle. [good old Google]

Best regards,

AndrewP

crayspond
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:23 am
Location: Reading UK

Re: Help to find a marriage or death

Post by crayspond » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:52 pm

In case it never uploaded.
Catherine Smith (McPhee) died June 9th 1967 at 15 Millbrae Crescent Clydebank She was 68 and a widow. Married to Samuel Turtan Smith looks like he was a Saddle tree maker. Father John McPhee deceased and mother Catherine McPhee previously McGinty m.s Wright. Usual residence 27 Toryglen St Glasgow. Cause of death hypostatic pneumonia. Diabetes and perephial vascular disease.
I found a marriage entry for them, helpfully gives me his second name Samuel Turtan Smith married 1940 in the Gorbals. A death entry for Samuel Turtan Smith in 1954 in the Gorbals age 67 - 11 years older than her. I have a feeling no children but i will try and check.
Sorry we have crosswired AndrewP! thanks for the info on a Saddle tree maker - never heard of it. Thanks.

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