WOW -- it's not cheap. £8.50 a certificate
So far all my family have been in Scotland and I was wondering what I would do when I hit a need for an English record. I think I will not be exploring that avenue!
Born in Scotland, died in England; finding death details?
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daj
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:12 pm
- Location: Glasgow, UK
So far all my family have been in Scotland and I was wondering what I would do when I hit a need for an English record. I think I will not be exploring that avenue!
[color=navy]David.
Researching: Jamieson/Glasgow, Scotland + New York. Fiddaman/Durham. Russell/Lanarkshire[/color]
[url=http://www.jamiesontree.co.uk]My Tree[/url]
Researching: Jamieson/Glasgow, Scotland + New York. Fiddaman/Durham. Russell/Lanarkshire[/color]
[url=http://www.jamiesontree.co.uk]My Tree[/url]
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Jake Drummond
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:00 pm
Longish email, bear with me please!
Ethel gives that name only all through the cencus and marriage records I have for her, though I don't have a birth record for the reasons already given, and her age in each and her age at marriage in October 1921 (not 1923 as I said earlier) gives a birth date of around 1877/78.
Ethel was said to be 3 years older than John and is said to have survived him according to an a older cousin of mine. She worked in service according to my late Mum, somewhere around Guilford and had a sister Dolly. Dolly had one child; Cliff? Atholl? Dolly was crippled with arthritis, like he, and Ethel's, mum. This ties in with information from other (distant)Cooper/Ladd relations and a contact in Shere.
In 1891 Ethel Cooper was a 14 year old scullery maid to Herbert Edlmann of Hound House in Shere, Surrey (census) and her parent's listing on the census return gives a daughter called Lilian aged 14 at home in Peaslake.
By 1901 Ethel was House Parlour Maid in Morden, at "Chalgrove" 3, Central Road, Morden, home of Emma H. Campbell, (Census).
Her place of birth ties in with Shere, and her given name is Ethel Cooper, no other initials. I have not traced a Lilian at this time.
In 1921 Ethel married to JBG in Edinburgh and strangely gave her usual residence as 23 The Square, Penicuik, the home as it turns out, of a James Bain, who could have been JBG's uncle, though there's no record of him having one such named.
They married after my grandmother died in childbirth, and Ethel took my 5 year old mum under her care in Peaslake or thereabouts and raised her as her own.
This according to family stories from late mum is how things progressed;
Ethel had been in service and had nursing training and had helped nurse my grandad back to health after one of his spells or recuperation from his injuries in France during WW1, in a house given over for the purpose for the duration of the war. Where this was is unclear. (Oh to have paid more attention when I was wee!!)
Upon demobilisation he was offered work by the house owner but returned home to Scotland and his family, but his wife Jane Dick died in early 1920 during childbirth, and that and the fact that his injuries made work in the mines very difficult, forced him to take up the offer and he moved with my mum to Surrey.
Mum lived and worked there until she was a teenager and returned home to Scotland for holidays with the family, meeting my dad and eventually marrying and staying here.
I traced a photograph of a grave in Putney Vale Cemetery and the image was kindly sent by charles.saleATgravesphotos.com and this shows the following;
"John Gardner, died 9th Sept. 1943 aged 63 and Lilian Gardner, died 1st April 1956, aged 79"
There's no memory of any story that JBG married again to any Lilian, so were Ethel and Lilian one and the same, and if so why are both listed on the same census under different names and living where they did, which seems correct for each of them?
There is another Cooper family living in Shere, cousins all in the likely event, and I think I've managed to separate which lot is which so I don't think I have any errors.
If only the English death records gave parents names.....................
email address edited to prevent spam...Anne H
Ethel gives that name only all through the cencus and marriage records I have for her, though I don't have a birth record for the reasons already given, and her age in each and her age at marriage in October 1921 (not 1923 as I said earlier) gives a birth date of around 1877/78.
Ethel was said to be 3 years older than John and is said to have survived him according to an a older cousin of mine. She worked in service according to my late Mum, somewhere around Guilford and had a sister Dolly. Dolly had one child; Cliff? Atholl? Dolly was crippled with arthritis, like he, and Ethel's, mum. This ties in with information from other (distant)Cooper/Ladd relations and a contact in Shere.
In 1891 Ethel Cooper was a 14 year old scullery maid to Herbert Edlmann of Hound House in Shere, Surrey (census) and her parent's listing on the census return gives a daughter called Lilian aged 14 at home in Peaslake.
By 1901 Ethel was House Parlour Maid in Morden, at "Chalgrove" 3, Central Road, Morden, home of Emma H. Campbell, (Census).
Her place of birth ties in with Shere, and her given name is Ethel Cooper, no other initials. I have not traced a Lilian at this time.
In 1921 Ethel married to JBG in Edinburgh and strangely gave her usual residence as 23 The Square, Penicuik, the home as it turns out, of a James Bain, who could have been JBG's uncle, though there's no record of him having one such named.
They married after my grandmother died in childbirth, and Ethel took my 5 year old mum under her care in Peaslake or thereabouts and raised her as her own.
This according to family stories from late mum is how things progressed;
Ethel had been in service and had nursing training and had helped nurse my grandad back to health after one of his spells or recuperation from his injuries in France during WW1, in a house given over for the purpose for the duration of the war. Where this was is unclear. (Oh to have paid more attention when I was wee!!)
Upon demobilisation he was offered work by the house owner but returned home to Scotland and his family, but his wife Jane Dick died in early 1920 during childbirth, and that and the fact that his injuries made work in the mines very difficult, forced him to take up the offer and he moved with my mum to Surrey.
Mum lived and worked there until she was a teenager and returned home to Scotland for holidays with the family, meeting my dad and eventually marrying and staying here.
I traced a photograph of a grave in Putney Vale Cemetery and the image was kindly sent by charles.saleATgravesphotos.com and this shows the following;
"John Gardner, died 9th Sept. 1943 aged 63 and Lilian Gardner, died 1st April 1956, aged 79"
There's no memory of any story that JBG married again to any Lilian, so were Ethel and Lilian one and the same, and if so why are both listed on the same census under different names and living where they did, which seems correct for each of them?
There is another Cooper family living in Shere, cousins all in the likely event, and I think I've managed to separate which lot is which so I don't think I have any errors.
If only the English death records gave parents names.....................
email address edited to prevent spam...Anne H
Last edited by Jake Drummond on Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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garibaldired
- Posts: 647
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:42 pm
- Location: Dorset, UK
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Jake Drummond
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:00 pm
Hmmmm.
Lilian and Ethel were sisters, the census returns show that clearly now that I look again.
No further forward with that line of thought.
It's not the money I object to paying, and our trip down to search will be worth paying if I can find their graves, it's the fact that the certificates may not show the parents names to prove one way or the other.
Lilian and Ethel were sisters, the census returns show that clearly now that I look again.
No further forward with that line of thought.
It's not the money I object to paying, and our trip down to search will be worth paying if I can find their graves, it's the fact that the certificates may not show the parents names to prove one way or the other.
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LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Hi Jake
best wishes
Lesley
If only the English birth records gave parents names.....................
An English (and an Irish) birth certificate will show both parents' names, a marriage cert will show the name and occupation of each father, a death certificate does not give parent names. (see the three "help sheets" on this page )it's the fact that the certificates may not show the parents names to prove one way or the other.
best wishes
Lesley
Last edited by LesleyB on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jake Drummond
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:00 pm
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garibaldired
- Posts: 647
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:42 pm
- Location: Dorset, UK
Hi Jake,
English certificates aren't great for information but if that's all there is.......
I have death certificates which do give the father's name (usually in the case of unmarried daughters in the occupation column!) and of course you would be likely to get the name of the widow. Worth a call to the record office about the one Tracy picked up I'd have thought.
Two births from Free BMD:
Dec 1874 Ethel Cooper Guildford 2a 58
Mar 1877 Lilian Cooper Guildford 2a 65
You've probably already investigated his service records which (if they have survived) will probably give you details of where he convalesced.
Surrey FHS ( I believe it's split into East & West ) might also be worth
contacting.
And there are always obituaries to be looked at in local newspapers.
Just a few thoughts.
Best wishes,
Meg
English certificates aren't great for information but if that's all there is.......
I have death certificates which do give the father's name (usually in the case of unmarried daughters in the occupation column!) and of course you would be likely to get the name of the widow. Worth a call to the record office about the one Tracy picked up I'd have thought.
Two births from Free BMD:
Dec 1874 Ethel Cooper Guildford 2a 58
Mar 1877 Lilian Cooper Guildford 2a 65
You've probably already investigated his service records which (if they have survived) will probably give you details of where he convalesced.
Surrey FHS ( I believe it's split into East & West ) might also be worth
contacting.
And there are always obituaries to be looked at in local newspapers.
Just a few thoughts.
Best wishes,
Meg
Main family lines are Harpers from Midlothian, Fife & Kinross-shire, and Dobies/Dobbies from Midlothian. Also Strathearn, Stobie, Layden and Downie.
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Jake Drummond
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:00 pm
I've tried searching to see if John's war service records survived Meg, but thus far there's nothing to be found at all, despite having his number and most of the other medals record details.
The information I have for Ethel and Lilian show them to be who I thought they were, and Ethel and John Gardner did marry as evidenced by the marriage lines I have, which gave me the parental details.
The mystery is where and when they died, and I hope the Surrey FHS might help there.
The searches on Ancestry are so badly targeted that over the last few nights I spent hours trying to find any deaths of either Ethel or John Gardner without any positive results at all.
It looks like an extensive, and expensive, search by buying records may be my only way out of the problem, though I'll certainly try trawling the newspapers when I get down there to see what may have been in print.
The information I have for Ethel and Lilian show them to be who I thought they were, and Ethel and John Gardner did marry as evidenced by the marriage lines I have, which gave me the parental details.
The mystery is where and when they died, and I hope the Surrey FHS might help there.
The searches on Ancestry are so badly targeted that over the last few nights I spent hours trying to find any deaths of either Ethel or John Gardner without any positive results at all.
It looks like an extensive, and expensive, search by buying records may be my only way out of the problem, though I'll certainly try trawling the newspapers when I get down there to see what may have been in print.
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garibaldired
- Posts: 647
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:42 pm
- Location: Dorset, UK
Hi Jake,
It is very difficult in England to track people after 1911 unless you have an approximate year to look up in the BMD indices. I sympathise but that's not much help to you! And just to cheer you up I have had little luck in finding graves in England even when I've found the exact date of death
One more thought - you might try the National Probate Index just in case either one of them left a will. I think most English record offices hold a card index (it's done by year & then name) and it's on microfiche at the National Archives at Kew.
Have you tried Rootschat for look up offers? or RAOGK?
Sorry not to be of more help.
Best wishes,
Meg
Sorry not to be of more help.
It is very difficult in England to track people after 1911 unless you have an approximate year to look up in the BMD indices. I sympathise but that's not much help to you! And just to cheer you up I have had little luck in finding graves in England even when I've found the exact date of death
One more thought - you might try the National Probate Index just in case either one of them left a will. I think most English record offices hold a card index (it's done by year & then name) and it's on microfiche at the National Archives at Kew.
Have you tried Rootschat for look up offers? or RAOGK?
Sorry not to be of more help.
Best wishes,
Meg
Sorry not to be of more help.
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Jake Drummond
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:00 pm
Ethel's death registration came today, and the details confirm it was her I had ordered the certificate for!
She's given as Ethel Gardner, widow of John Gardner, Coal Miner. She died on March 2nd, 1956, aged 81 years from a Coronary Atheroma, at 8, St. James, Hale Road, FARNHAM.
The infornmant was H. Cooper, brother, of 3 East View, Peaslake, Surrey, who registered the death on March 5th.
Now to find the locations, and then maybe her and grandad Gardner's final resting place....................... I suspect she /they may be in Shere or Peaslake churchyard, given Ethel's strong connections with the villages.
St. James was a nursing home as far as I can see.
It could be that Ethel was buried in Farnham though, but my enquiries to the local health authority who ran the home have so far had little success.
She's given as Ethel Gardner, widow of John Gardner, Coal Miner. She died on March 2nd, 1956, aged 81 years from a Coronary Atheroma, at 8, St. James, Hale Road, FARNHAM.
The infornmant was H. Cooper, brother, of 3 East View, Peaslake, Surrey, who registered the death on March 5th.
Now to find the locations, and then maybe her and grandad Gardner's final resting place....................... I suspect she /they may be in Shere or Peaslake churchyard, given Ethel's strong connections with the villages.
St. James was a nursing home as far as I can see.
It could be that Ethel was buried in Farnham though, but my enquiries to the local health authority who ran the home have so far had little success.