Alexander McNicol - is this the missing one, or not?.....

[LesleyB]

David
I'd be really grateful for some advice -
I've had a rummage about but I'm not clear on what information exactly a crew agreement is likely to hold - the best I've come up with is at:

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.560

Crew agreements, detailed contracts between a seaman and his employer, carried on beyond 1857, and provide greater information about the crew, apprentices, ships and voyages.

and at:
http://www.southampton.gov.uk/leisure/a ... --1871.asp

Crew Agreements were legal agreements between the crew of a vessel and the owners, and are particularly useful to family historians because they give a list of crew members with their personal details.

(Unfortunately the picture on the above page is too small to get an idea of the contents.)

What sort of details do they typically contain? I suppose the sort of thing I'm hoping for ideally is a last known address (which tallies with the address I have for the family) or preferably a next-of-kin, date of birth, parent's names in order to find out exactly WHO this Alexander McNicol is, and either bring this search to a conclusion or be able to eliminate this one as a "wild goose chase."

Best wishes
Lesley

P.S. Just found this at :
http://www.genealogysupplies.com/spider ... ta_cds.htm

Crew lists & agreements for the years 1863 to 1913 £ 29.95
Seafarer’s details from the Crew Lists and Agreements 1863-1913. This CD contains the fruits of much hard work done by the Clip project run by Peter Owen. The original files have been collated to produce a master name index of more that 269,000 records. The data has also then been sorted into the records matching particular vessels so that it is possible to follow a person’s career progress through the crew list records, and work out which ships they served on and when. Searchable index to crew lists, crew agreements and log books, as well as details including full name, age, DoB, placeof birth, name of ship, previous ship etc. (CLIP: Crew List Index Project)

Does this mean the info held in Newfoundland is also available on CD or would this just hold the proportion which are at Kew? If so, it might prove to be better value for money as I have a few folk I could check up on at the same time.

Later.. ah, looks like it represents a sample
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/leaflet ... let_14.pdf

We have a sample of crew lists, 1863-1913, with an alphabetical index of ships' names. A national project to index a sample of these lists by seamen's names called CLIP (Crew List Index Project) has led to a cd-rom being produced which includes references to 269,000 seafarers. A copy is available in the Record Office.

[LesleyB]

Update:

The photocopies of the crew agreements for ship Sardhana arrived from Canada this morning.

They reveal...nothing that takes me any nearer to working out if this Alexander McNicol is the Alexander I've "lost". Nothing there that I didn't know really, apart from the date of departure of the ship Sardhana for Sydney in December 1885.

All it reveals is that Alexander McNicol was born Glasgow, was 23 when he joined the ship in 1885, (which doesn't quite add up if 18/3/1887 he was 23 when he died - maybe they just look at the age when they signed up and use that? And the one I'm looking for would have been 21yrs old in Feb. 1885) previous voyage was on the Kikcudbright, for which "we would hold no agreements for 1885 as the yrs. ending in '5' 1885 are retained at the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, England"

However :
"We do hold agreements for the Firth of Tay O.N. 76752 for the yrs. 1878, 79,81,83 onwards and the agreements for 1882 may be filed in 1883. Do you want 1883 searched? This search will be included within the 1 hr. research already done"

but...
"In response to your e-mail of 24 Oct. 2005, I have researched the crew agreements of the vessel Firth of Tay O.N. 76752 for the year 1883 (voyage 12/7/1882 - 4/7/1883, 26/7/1883 - 11/8/1883), but no listing of Alexander McNicol. It is possible that he was a passenger and not a crew member. "

The "release" column on the agreement states "one bag"- I'm not sure if this refers to a bag of belongings Alexander may have had? The others who are being discharged from the ship have signed their names in this column to indicate that they have received their pay. Who did they give the "one bag" to??

There is a note at the end of the agreement, a certificate, to the effect that during his illness Alexander McNicol "received every attention and medicine" signed and stamped M.M Office Liverpool (which is the first UK port to which the Sarhana appears to have stopped on its return to UK in 1887)

The researcher at the Maritime History Archive has been very helpful and it has certainly been interesting to be dealing with records located at such a vast distance away, but I'm no nearer the answer. I can't help but think that somewhere at one time there must have been a record of a next-of-kin - surely if someone dies at sea you inform the family at some point? But maybe this has not survived. As fascinating as the Sardhana ship agreements are, Alexander remains a mystery.

Next stop (just found this in my notes) **Register of Deceased Seamen - Arranged chronologically month by month, this register is available for the years 1886 - 1952. Archives and Special Collections, The Mitchell, Glasgow. Worth a shot!


Best wishes
Lesley

[LesleyB]

Just a thought - relationship by common (hereditory?) disease?
(Heck, you can tell I'm getting desperate with this one! )

Alexander McNicol died of Dropsy on ship Sardhana.

Consider:
http://www.amlwchdata.co.uk/old_medical_terms.htm
Dropsy = A contraction for hydropsy. The presence of abnormally large amounts of fluid. Congestive heart failure
Anasarca = Generalized massive dropsy.
and at: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/glossarytt.html

Dropsy Oedema (fluid retention), often due to heart or kidney disease. Contraction of hydropsy, congestive heart failure edema (swelling), often caused by kidney or heart disease. Dropsy would be called congestive heart failure today. Accumulation of fluid around the heart.

*William Falconer McNicol (brother to the Alexander I've lost ) 1866-1875 died aged 9 of Anasarca
*Margaret McNicol (sister to the Alexander I've lost )1859-1878 died aged 19 of "Chronic Brights Disease of kidneys, diarrhoea & anarsaca"


I wonder - it is coincidence??
Does anyone know - how widespread was Dropsy? I get the feeling from the number of times I've seen it that it was a pretty widely used term and not that unusual as a cause of death - any thoughts?

Best wishes
Lesley

[joette]

I think you have answered yourself. The connection I think is Brights Disease.This is a name given for a variety of diseases causing Renal Failure.Today we would be type specific but off course in 1820's when Bright described this condition all were lumped together.
Acute Renal Failure can be dramatic & rapid or chronic & creeping.
Sounds like Alexander had the acute type which in those days would have made a very unpleasant death-acute pain,nausea,vomiting,concentrated urine & extreme pain in passing of any urine.There would also be extreme odeama especially of the limbs & face.heart failure is probably what carried him off in the end.
Patients were I think in the days before dialysis treated with diuretics,dietary measures & even in Victorian times by "bleeding" which we think of as a Medieval practise.
There would also have been infection of the Renal system & off course as the body wasnt being "flushed out" infections systemically too.
Renal Failure can be Genetic so this may provide you with a good clue as to family.
Incedentally it was said to be most prevalent in males & it was most prevalent between the ages of 3-8
I have a great interest in this area as my wee brother has Glomerulonephritis & have watched his suffering over the past fifteen years.Thank God for modern medicine,people who allow the donation of loved ones organs & Dialysis which he is currently on due to the failure after 13 years of his transplanted kidney.
So I think you have found your Alexander- do you have Death Certificates for other family members apart from the other siblings? Especially cousins.Good luck in your search.

[joette]

Duplicate post deleted

TSAG Moderator

[LesleyB]

Hi Joette
Thanks for your reply

do you have Death Certificates for other family members apart from the other siblings? Especially cousins

Of the Davie cousins (their mother's side) I can't see anything obvious in the death causes of the ones I know about.

However, on the McNicol side I only know about Daniel senior's sister Margaret who married a John Clark. Of her Clark/McNicol family (cousins to my main McNicol family) I know of three who died relatively young:

Duncan Clark 1858 - 1863 death cause Tubercular? Hydrocephalus
Daniel Clark 1862 - died "young" according to grave stone of his grandparents :
http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-203
but have not been able to find him at all, so no idea what he died from.
Archibald Clark 1860-1878 - "supposed to have been consumption, no regular medical attendant"

Archibald's cause of death is a bit of a mystery but perhaps Duncan's "Tubercular Hydrocephalus" would possibly be a similar cause to Dropsy/Brights?

Best wishes
Lesley

[StewL]

Hi Lesley

They are two different ailments. hydrocephalus is caused by a failure of the cerebro-spinal fluid to drain away, causing increased pressure on the brain, and an increase in head/cranium size. It needs to be caught young and a shunt/valve (Spitz-Holzer?) is inserted to drain the CSF into the superior vena cava (usually).
Brights is a Kidney disease.

I looked after a number of children with severe hydrocephalus, when I was working with children with severe disabilities.

[LesleyB]

Thanks Stewie
I'm clutching at straws now!! I just so want to know if he is, or isn't the correct Alexander!!!!

Best wishes
Lesley

[joette]

With the names & causes of Death of siblings I would say that the probability of them being related is very high. I am not sure of the statistics re the genetic spread of Kidney Disease but with the names,link of the same cause of Death, the fact that your Alexander disappeared around the time this one died I would say that it more likely he is yours than not.
I dont suppose their are any family stories of someone dying at sea?
Good luck if he was mine I would put him in the "probably" file & hope clarification comes later.
Stewie you are spot on re Hydrocephalus although with genetic pre-screening you usually only see it now folowing injury or infection like Menigitis.I was at school with a boy who had Hydrocephalus-pre the Spritz-Holtzer valve days I think.He spent a lot of time in a pram because his head was so large.We thought nothing of it & he was included in as much as possible.He died fairly young- before 12.He was not intellectually impaired & with the surgery could probably have lived longer-this was at Faifley Primary.

[LesleyB]

Hi Joette
Thanks for your reply

I dont suppose their are any family stories of someone dying at sea?

Good grief, no, ...nothing as helpful as that!!!!

He's definately in the "possible" file - but I'd just love to have him moved into the "positively identified" file!
I still am not convinced by his job-shift from "Ship Brokers Clerk" in 1881 to "member of crew" as in AB ("able bodied seaman", I guess) on the Sarhana in December 1885 - it seems a bit of a downward shift when I know he inherited quite a bit of money in February 1885. (....unless of course he'd gambled it all away or sunk it all in some disasterous short-lived business venture, or something similar - hey, I'm open to any suggestions!! He appears to have been on Ship Kirkcudbrightshire immediately prior to the Sardhana voyage)

Also I'm convinced also that either his signing up for the voyage or his death must have produced at least some more paperwork - who collected his bag? Who was given his wages of £28-7-1 due at the time of his death? Though whether any of it surivives or not is another matter.

Also I'm very aware of digging about in records with which I am not at all familiar - there may be clues in these Crew Agreement documents which I'm just not picking up on. e.g. There are initials in the margin next to his name - which look like "W&E" and in the final column, "W&S&W" - no one else on the voyage appears to have died and he is the only one with these notes - anyone experienced in this area??

Best wishes
Lesley