Help with birth record.....

[Jack]

Hi Linda,
Have you found James McTAGGART on the 1861 census?
If not, what was his age on the 1871? Birthplace?
And age on his 1873 DC? Does it have his parents' names?
Ta - Jack
--
ps, i couldn't see a suitable "Peter McTaggart" in Lanarksire 1861 even searching on P* M*cT*.
That's why i thought he might actually have been Ralph, who's birth year fits Peter in 1881.

[LindaMc]

Hi Jack
On the 1871 census it has JAMES McTAGGART, widower age 53 born Lanarkshire, Glasgow

On his death certificate - JAMES McTAGGART Pauper formerly Hand Loom Weaver Widower of Agnes Hall 1873 age looks like either 51 or 54 . Former residence 2 Norfolk Court, Glasgow.
On Ralph's birth certificate James' occupation is listed as what looks like Private Soldier Lanarkshire Militia.
Linda

PS I see what you mean about Peter and Ralph. I could only find one Peter in Scotland and he didn't have the right parents. Agnes Hall's father was also called Ralph.

[Jack]

Hi Linda,
It's not looking too good for a James McTAGGART in Lanarkshire 1861.
Unless his parents were maybe a Joseph & Helen.
He's the only Glasgow born James anywhere near suitable, but his age is only 38.

I'll get Ralf [58] & Catherine [59] HALL, with daur? Catherine [22] in 1851 at one point.
Did they also have a son Ralph born abt 1828?
Jack

[LindaMc]

Hi Jack
James McTaggart's parents were Peter McTaggart and Catherine McLean.
I only got the name Ralph Hall from the death certificate of Agnes Hall
but her mother's forename and maiden name are blank. James was the informant - you'd think he'd know the name of his wife's mother even if she was dead!
This is all I know about them so far.

I can't believe I'm doing this at this time in the morning!! I must be mad.

Linda

[Thrall]

I can't believe I'm doing this at this time in the morning!! I must be mad.

Hi Linda and welcome to the club......"you don´t have to be crazy to be here, but it helps".........

Good hunting,

Thrall

[Jack]

Hi Linda,
Some censuses - i know you have the 1861 (it's just needed for a minute).
I've also added another 1841 - an Agnes & Margt. HALL staying with a Margt. GIBSON & family.
Not saying they are Ralph & Catherines children, but it's a fair possibilty.
I can't see Agnes in Glasgow 1851, but sis Margaret is with her parents then.
==
1841 cens 622 Ed 88 p 6 (Barony - Bridgeton)
Dalmarnock Road.
// Ralph HALL, 40, cotton spinner, b SCT
Cathrine HALL, 42, -------------- b SCT
Joseph HALL, 22, baker, b SCT
Cathrine HALL, 14, -------b LKS
William HALL, 15, baker, b LKS
/ James MOIR, 25, cotton hlw, b SCT
Archibald SMITH, 20, baker j/man, b SCT
James BENNET, 20, baker j/man, b SCT
--
1841 cens 622 Ed 150 p 10 (Barony - Calton)
McKenzie Street.
// Margt. GIBSON, 40, plw, b LKS
Lucenea? 23, Hugh 22, Alexr. 19, John 17, Agnes 14, Daniel 10, Thomas 8 [all b LKS]
/ Agnes HALL, 7, ---------------b LKS
Margt. HALL, 5, -------------------b LKS
John Aitchison, 18, hlw cotton, b LKS
==
1851 cens 622 (600) Ed 12 p 32 (Barony - Bridgeton - Calton)
71 Dale Street.
Ralf HALL, head, marr, 58, cotton spinner, b Johnstone, RFW
Cathrin HALL, wife, marr, 59, ---------------- b Camsey [sic], STI
Cathrin HALL, daur, u/m 22, worker in mill, b Andrews, Glasgow
Margaret HALL, daur, u/m 17, worker in mill, b Barony, Calton, Glasgow
Margaret LOGAN, lodger, u/m 38?, rtd. servant, b Camsey, STI
Margaret COFFEE, daur, 17mos, ------------------ b Barony, Calton, Glasgow
==
1861 cens 644-3 Ed 48 p 6 (Bridgeton - Calton)
36 East Hope Street.
Catherine HALL, head, MARR, 71, cotton yarn winder, b Campsie, STI
Catherine LAUGHLAN, sister, U/M, 69, ---------------- b Campsie, STI
Ralph McTAGGART, gr-son, 4, -------------------------b Glasgow, LKS
==
You've landed lucky in that there are 2 Poor Relief records -
But sorry, it might take me a couple of weeks to get details (i'm still trying to catch up on work from way back last year!).
D-HEW 10 / 2 / 19. page 12. Ralph HALL (64). Applied 1858.
D-HEW 10 / 4 / 27. page 153. James McTAGGART (37). Applied 1863.
I only had time for a quick glance to confirm the records are"yours".
Ralph HALL's wife is Catherine LOGAN, but i notice her u/m "sister" (also a Catherine...) in 1861 is a LAUGHLAN...
Also noticed the 1861 census says Catherine is married.... but possibly just one of these not uncommon census errors.
--
Jack
ps; you probably have these possible baptisms for Ralf & Catherine.
(Ralf / Ralph was born at Thorn Village near Johnstone, which was in the Abbey Parish).
RALF HALL - Christening: 18 DEC 1791 Abbey (Paisley), Renfrew, Scotland
Parents: JOSEPH HALL & ELIZABETH MCADAM
CATHERINE LOGAN - Christening: 28 MAR 1790 Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Father: ROBERT LOGAN - [no mother mentioned, but hopefully Catherine's DC will have her parents' names]
--

[LindaMc]

Hello Jack,
WOW! I go away for two days and come back to find all this information.
You're wonderful. It'll take some time for me to digest all this and to see how it all fits. Thanks ever so much for all your work.
Linda

[Jack]

Hi Linda,
Could you tell me what age Agnes HALL was on her 1859 DC?
I'm trying to identify her in 1851.
Ta - Jack

[LindaMc]

Hi Jack,
Agnes Hall was 32 on her Death certificate. 29/4/1859 at 94 Rose Street, Glasgow. District of Hutchisontown. Informant James McTaggart (widower).
Thanks,
Linda

[Jack]

HI Linda,
The 1863 Poor Law application for James McTAGGART makes for more questions....
Son ROBERT, 7 with an aunt in Manchester.... Is this RALPH / PETER?
He's the right age; was Ralph McTAGGART born in Bluevale 1856?
Who's aunt? father James'? or son "Robert's"?
And i wonder what James' sister Mrs BONNAR's forename is?
--
The other nearest suitable for a James McTAGGART in the 1861 Glasgow census is this James TAGGART.
I know the age, 38 in 1861, doesn't fit with 53 in 1871, but it's not far from the age on the 1863 record.
[the address isn't on the P Law record, but Bedford Lane IS off Main St, Gorbals,
and according to the addresses below James was in Main St abt April 1861]

1861 cens 644-10 Ed 76 p 13 (Govan - Huthesontown)
5 Bedford Lane. [this is between Main St & Surrey St]
[8 lodgers in all are with an Andrew Spence (60) b Derry, Ireland & wife Mary (60) b Glasgow]
JAMES TAGGART, lodger, widower, 38, cotton weaver, b Glasgow.
--
Glasgow Poor Relief Application. D-HEW 10/4/27. page 153. N°B12740.
Applied - 3.5pm 3 Sep 1863.
James McTAGGART, 23 Ladywell, front low left. John Woods.
Born - Paterson's Land, 40 Nelson St, Tradeston, Govan.
Widower, age 37½, weaver.
Disabled by Panis [sic]
Dependants - Robert 7 yrs born in Bluevale, at present with an aunt in Manchester.
His wife Agnes HALL died in April 1859 in Rose St, Hutchesontown.
Other Information / Dependants -
Son of Peter McTaggart a weaver & Catherine McLean, both dead.
Had relief to the amount of 3/6 from Govan when wife was badly before her death and got
Coffin & C & 2/6 from Govan at her death. Was visited by Mr Forsyth. [i can't find this Govan record]
First application. Settlement, Govan.
Remarks - For proof of birth reference is made to his sister Mrs Bonnar,
residing in Sim Close, Main St, Gorbals, back land.
--
In 23 Ladywell, Glasgow - 3 mos, 14 days
Prior in 29 Gallowgate, Glasgow - 1 mo
King St, Calton, Barony - 1 mo
19 Bell St, Calton, Barony - 1 yr 2 mos
Gallowgate, Glasgow - 2 mos
East Hope Street, Barony - 10 mos
King St, Calton, Barony - 2 mos
Main St, Gorbals - 1 yr 6 mos
Moncrieff St, Gorbals - 5 mos
Rose St, Hutchesontown, Govan - 1 mo
where his wife died & he had relief from Govan
Bluevale, Barony - 2 yrs
East Nelson St, Glasgow - 2yrs 6?mos
St. Josephs Place, Glasgow - 2 mos
Barrowfield Toll, Barony - 10 mos
Little St, Calton, Glasgow - 1 yr 6 mos
Beggar Row, Calton, Barony - 3 yrs
Buchan St, Gorbals - 6 yrs
Tradeston, Govan from birth.
--
House 3/9/63. See letter 11/9/63 - 45/373. I have to refuse liability in respect that this
man is ablebodied and has no encumbrance. Left Poorhouse 7/9/63.
================================================
And it doesn't get any easier with your HALLs either! In fact, harder.
Now i've a better idea of ages, it makes the HALL chn, Agnes 7 & Mgt 5 with Mrs Gibson in 1841 all wrong.
Some things (names for one) just aren't adding up when comparing the 1841 & 1851 censuses to this P Law record of 1858.
Could Agnes HALL who wed James McTAGGART started out life as Catherine? [no mention of a Catherine in the 1858 record]
[am i changing names just to suit me? Ralph to Peter McTaggart & now Catherine to Agnes Hall...]
I can't find a suitable AGNES HALL in Glasgow 1851, but a CATHRIN is with parents Ralf & Cathrin....
Then there's daur Margaret 17 (b Glasgow) in 1851 who doesn't tally with daur Margaret 38 (b Linwood) in the 1858 PLaw,
And there's still daur Elizabeth to work out....
--
Glasgow Poor Relief Application. D-HEW 10/2/19. page 12. N°65341.
Applied - 1.50pm 22 Nov 1858.
Ralph HALL, 90 East Nelson Street, front 1 up.
Born - Thorn near Johnstone, Abbey, Paisley.
Married, age 64, cotton spinner.
Earnings - nothing at present.
Partially Disabled - Age & Idle.
Other Information / Dependants - Wife Catherine LOGAN 67 born in Newton Campsie, a winder.
Children, not dependants -
Joseph 40, born in Linwood, Kilbarchan, married, 5 chn, a Biscuit Baker.
Margt. 38, born in Linwood, married, 5 chn.
Eliz. 34, born in Tobago St, Calton, married, 6 chn.
Agnes 32, born in Tobago St, Calton, married, 1 child, Husband in Militia.
First application. Settlement, Glasgow.
Remarks - In no Society. None of his family are able to assist him.
--
In present house - 4 yrs 6 mos.
St. Joseph Place - 3 yrs.
No Decision 30/11/58.
58 1/12. 4/-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And just who are these LOGAN "step-children" with Joseph in 1851...?

1851 cens 622 (593) Ed 13 p 18 (Barony - Calton)
94 King Street.
Joseph HALL. head, marr, 31, baker, emp 2 men, b Linwood, RFW
Mary HALL, wife, marr, 25, ---------------b Saltcoats, AYR
Margaret HALL, daur, 6, scholar, b Glasgow, LKS
James LOGAN, step-son, 14, baker's appr., b Glasgow, LKS
Catherine LOGAN, step-daur, 11, house servant, b Glasgow, LKS
--
1861 cens 644-4 Ed 65 p 9 (Calton)
94 King Street.
Joseph HALL, head, marr, 43, master baker emp 3 men, b Linwood, RFW
Mary HALL, wife, marr, 39, ---------------------------------b Saltcoats, AYR
Margaret HALL, daur, u/m 18, steam loom weaver, b Glasgow, LKS
Mary HALL, daur, 9, scholar, b Glasgow, LKS
Elisabeth HALL, daur, 7, scholar, b Glasgow, LKS
Joseph HALL, son, 5, ------------------b Glasgow, LKS
Barbara HALL, daur, 2, -----------------b Glasgow, LKS
Maria HALL, daur, 8mos, ----------------b Glasgow, LKS
Barbara KERR, wife's sister, u/m 36, cotton yarn winder, b Saltcoats, AYR
--
1881 Census Place: Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: 48 Waterloo St
Source: FHL Film 0203633 GRO Ref Volume 644-2 EnumDist 11 Page 6
Joseph HALL M 62 M Linwood, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Baker Employing 1 Man
Mary HALL M 59 F Saltcoats, Ayr, Scotland Rel: Wife
Elizabeth LEARMOUTH W 27 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Steamloom Weaver Cotton
Joseph HALL U 25 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Baker
Barbara HALL U 22 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Steam Loom Weaver Cotton
Maria HALL U 20 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Steam Loom Weaver Cotton
Mary LEARMOUTH 6 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Gr Daur Occ: Scholar
Jessie LEARMOUTH 4 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Gr Daur
Barbara LEARMOUTH 2 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Gr Daur
John LEARMOUTH 5m M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Gr Son
---------
I need to leave them with you - ma heid's birlin!
Jack