Hi Jack,
Thanks for the facts on Alex Neil - I suspected it was not the right one.
I received the copy of Hugh Sterling Pollock's Will. It was written in 1880 and bears the same registration number as the one I saw years ago. HOWEVER, it does not contain all the details I noted when I read it years ago - like naming sisters and brothers and nephews??? This one is hand written and signed by him so I am yet again puzzled! Maybe they use the same number when updating a will?? Or it may have been part of the WIll I saw copied by the lawyers when settling the estate - after Hugh's death and they only copied the parts that were still applicable i.e. all others had died?? I will think more about this over the next few days.
I also received the photos of the Neil grave site in Jersey City BUT there were no stones - either they could not be found or were upset face down and not able to photograph them.(the cemetery looked unmaintained) She was not clear and I have e-mailed her to question but she does not responded.
Man, it would be nice to have that other kind of luck in this matter!
Will study all this a bit more and come back with my final conclusions
Appreciate you clearing up Alex Neil as a non connected person.
Hugh
Pollock or Pollick of Williamsburgh
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talkhugh
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Pollocks/Pollicks
Pollock, Pollick, Polick, Neil, Boll, Livingston
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talkhugh
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Pollock or Pollick of Williamsborough
Hi Jack,
Been thinking of your search results but no new ideas coming of it.
In my post of 24 April I mentioned Williamwood was the place name on Alexander's tombstone according to a cousin. Did this or the other names in that post give you any further thought?
The name Livingston does not mean anything to me - not heard of here in Canada as neighbors or in any documents etc.
I have contacted the Jersey City library to find James Neil's obit to see if it mentioned all of his surviving children. Hope to get answer soon - if there was an obit. Most often in those days, obits contained little info. But worth a try.
Hugh
Been thinking of your search results but no new ideas coming of it.
In my post of 24 April I mentioned Williamwood was the place name on Alexander's tombstone according to a cousin. Did this or the other names in that post give you any further thought?
The name Livingston does not mean anything to me - not heard of here in Canada as neighbors or in any documents etc.
I have contacted the Jersey City library to find James Neil's obit to see if it mentioned all of his surviving children. Hope to get answer soon - if there was an obit. Most often in those days, obits contained little info. But worth a try.
Hugh
Pollock, Pollick, Polick, Neil, Boll, Livingston
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Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Pollock or Pollick of Williamsborough
Hi Hugh,
Looks like you've not been given all the details of Hugh S. POLLOCK's will....
Well not if you remember things that weren't on the latest one sent to you!
Possibly there was an amendment to the handwritten 1880 will?
And that's what you got many years ago?
Seems like you may need to get back to whoever gave you the details and ask.
--
Meanwhile, i really don't know what can be done to identify the "two Scottish nephews".
I take it that Hugh S. left something to them in his will?
Seems odd that their full names weren't mentioned though; unless not known or unsure of? (as you'd mentioned)
But how then would they have been contacted? Someone would need to find their names!
Any chance that Hugh's will was handled by an American lawyer that's still in business? (clutching at straws...)
--
We don't know if the LIVINGSTONs are related (though fairly good circumstantial evidence that they could be).
Just for talking sake, we'll assume (never wise i know) that Janet, Margaret, and Agnes "POLLOCK" are sisters.
And if they were, then surely,
Janet & Agnes would've known the names of their LIVINGSTON nephews (ie John born ~1840 & James born ~1844)
Janet, because she was in North Berwick until the mid 1840s (Margaret died abt 1844 - 1846).
Agnes, because she was with Margaret LIVINGSTON (POLICK) in Glasgow 1841.
Maybe Agnes went to North Berwick with sister Margaret around 1842-43,
and if so she certainly returned, as she was with her sister Janet NEIL in Glasgow 1851.
Though often any family move was for work related reasons, and not because someone close had died,
and didn't see eye to eye with a bro-in-law, or his new wife....
The above dates are only a bit of guesswork going by the birth places & years of the NEIL children.
The Neil family appear to have left North Berwick and returned to Glasgow approx 1844 - 1846.
(Alexander born North Berwick abt 1844; James born Glasgow abt 1846)
As James LIVINGSTON re-married in Jan 1847, i could understand contact with the POLLOCKs being lost.
(although his children may have been related to the Pollock family, he wasn't)
So possibly no one in America knew what happened to John (who died 1868) or James (probably d. 1928)
The NEILs (and Agnes Pollock) had left Scotland before 1868.
For all they knew both were still living, and no reason to think John had died a young man of 27 yrs.
But if they were the nephews mentioned in the will of Hugh S , why weren't they named?
Sisters Janet & Agnes must've known their names, so you have to think their brother Hugh S would've too.
But all this is based on the presumption that Janet, Margaret, and Agnes were sisters.
We just don't know for sure; only that it's a fairly good possibility.
--
On the other hand there may be POLLOCK nephews (ie sons of unknown brother(s) of Hugh S).
Or sisters for that matter...which would make it even more difficult!
Hugh's will not mentioning the names of his two Scottish nephews is a real stumbling-block.
(i still doubt Alexander & Andrew Neil - only because there doesn't seem to be any trace of them in Scotland after 1851)
Is there anything on the "back" of Hugh's stone? (i know 3 faces have names)
Very sad to see Hugh and wife Adelia lost their son at such a young age.
--
As regards Williamsborough / Williamstown / Williamwood.
Do you have a photo of Alexander POLLOCK's gravestone?
I only ask because, even if well worn, the length of his birthplace as carved on the stone might help.
Williamwood (or town) should be much shorter than Williamsborough (or even Williamsburgh).
I don't know who ordered Alexander's stone, or how long after his death it was erected,
but i'd be thinking a North American mason wouldn't think Williamwood (unless told).
Same for a transcriber unsure of the name;
Borough or Town would seem more usual for placename endings in N. America?
--
So, just as before, nothing that helps in any way. I'm stuck meantime.
Jack
Looks like you've not been given all the details of Hugh S. POLLOCK's will....
Well not if you remember things that weren't on the latest one sent to you!
Possibly there was an amendment to the handwritten 1880 will?
And that's what you got many years ago?
Seems like you may need to get back to whoever gave you the details and ask.
--
Meanwhile, i really don't know what can be done to identify the "two Scottish nephews".
I take it that Hugh S. left something to them in his will?
Seems odd that their full names weren't mentioned though; unless not known or unsure of? (as you'd mentioned)
But how then would they have been contacted? Someone would need to find their names!
Any chance that Hugh's will was handled by an American lawyer that's still in business? (clutching at straws...)
--
We don't know if the LIVINGSTONs are related (though fairly good circumstantial evidence that they could be).
Just for talking sake, we'll assume (never wise i know) that Janet, Margaret, and Agnes "POLLOCK" are sisters.
And if they were, then surely,
Janet & Agnes would've known the names of their LIVINGSTON nephews (ie John born ~1840 & James born ~1844)
Janet, because she was in North Berwick until the mid 1840s (Margaret died abt 1844 - 1846).
Agnes, because she was with Margaret LIVINGSTON (POLICK) in Glasgow 1841.
Maybe Agnes went to North Berwick with sister Margaret around 1842-43,
and if so she certainly returned, as she was with her sister Janet NEIL in Glasgow 1851.
Though often any family move was for work related reasons, and not because someone close had died,
and didn't see eye to eye with a bro-in-law, or his new wife....
The above dates are only a bit of guesswork going by the birth places & years of the NEIL children.
The Neil family appear to have left North Berwick and returned to Glasgow approx 1844 - 1846.
(Alexander born North Berwick abt 1844; James born Glasgow abt 1846)
As James LIVINGSTON re-married in Jan 1847, i could understand contact with the POLLOCKs being lost.
(although his children may have been related to the Pollock family, he wasn't)
So possibly no one in America knew what happened to John (who died 1868) or James (probably d. 1928)
The NEILs (and Agnes Pollock) had left Scotland before 1868.
For all they knew both were still living, and no reason to think John had died a young man of 27 yrs.
But if they were the nephews mentioned in the will of Hugh S , why weren't they named?
Sisters Janet & Agnes must've known their names, so you have to think their brother Hugh S would've too.
But all this is based on the presumption that Janet, Margaret, and Agnes were sisters.
We just don't know for sure; only that it's a fairly good possibility.
--
On the other hand there may be POLLOCK nephews (ie sons of unknown brother(s) of Hugh S).
Or sisters for that matter...which would make it even more difficult!
Hugh's will not mentioning the names of his two Scottish nephews is a real stumbling-block.
(i still doubt Alexander & Andrew Neil - only because there doesn't seem to be any trace of them in Scotland after 1851)
Is there anything on the "back" of Hugh's stone? (i know 3 faces have names)
Very sad to see Hugh and wife Adelia lost their son at such a young age.
--
As regards Williamsborough / Williamstown / Williamwood.
Do you have a photo of Alexander POLLOCK's gravestone?
I only ask because, even if well worn, the length of his birthplace as carved on the stone might help.
Williamwood (or town) should be much shorter than Williamsborough (or even Williamsburgh).
I don't know who ordered Alexander's stone, or how long after his death it was erected,
but i'd be thinking a North American mason wouldn't think Williamwood (unless told).
Same for a transcriber unsure of the name;
Borough or Town would seem more usual for placename endings in N. America?
--
So, just as before, nothing that helps in any way. I'm stuck meantime.
Jack
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talkhugh
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:15 pm
- Location: Quebec, Canada
Pollock or Pollick of Williamsborough
Hi Jack,
I asked the researcher about Hugh S Pollock's Will - how it had the same number as the longer version I saw in 1979. She said she got hers from the state records which records came from the county office when settling his estate. She said they may have not copied all parts of it and maybe I should ask for the record from the local county office. I must admit the writing on both Hugh S's and his wife Adelia's looked identical but both had their respective signatures. Adelia's was written in 1875 where Hugh S's was written in 1880 - 5 years later! ???
Regarding the names of the nephews in Scotland not being listed in his Will, his will listed all his surviving heirs by name except the two nephews in Scotland but only his adopted daughter inherited anything.
The lawyer's name is clearly printed but no mention of a legal firm so I doubt I can trace an individual lawyer. I will keep it in mind though.
It would make sense that Agnes would have left the Livingston household when her brother-in-law remarried after assumed sister died. Her father James would probably have died by then too so no reason to stay there.
It is highly suspect that Andrew and Alexander having disappeared just may have died - following the luck of that Neil family. They could have emigrated too except that Andrew was so young! On the other hand, Hugh S was only 11 when he came to Canada with his brother and stayed separate from his brother when he arrived i.e. did not live anywhere near him. It is very hard to connect the dots!
I will be going to Lachute soon where Alexander Pollock is buried and will photograph the tombstone and check it again. I do remember it being white stone and the engraving very hard to read. I will take a pencil this time and follow the engraving to high light the letters.
Lastly, there was no obituary found for James Neil in Jersey City so just another dead end! Very discouraging!
Thanks again Jack.
Hugh
I asked the researcher about Hugh S Pollock's Will - how it had the same number as the longer version I saw in 1979. She said she got hers from the state records which records came from the county office when settling his estate. She said they may have not copied all parts of it and maybe I should ask for the record from the local county office. I must admit the writing on both Hugh S's and his wife Adelia's looked identical but both had their respective signatures. Adelia's was written in 1875 where Hugh S's was written in 1880 - 5 years later! ???
Regarding the names of the nephews in Scotland not being listed in his Will, his will listed all his surviving heirs by name except the two nephews in Scotland but only his adopted daughter inherited anything.
The lawyer's name is clearly printed but no mention of a legal firm so I doubt I can trace an individual lawyer. I will keep it in mind though.
It would make sense that Agnes would have left the Livingston household when her brother-in-law remarried after assumed sister died. Her father James would probably have died by then too so no reason to stay there.
It is highly suspect that Andrew and Alexander having disappeared just may have died - following the luck of that Neil family. They could have emigrated too except that Andrew was so young! On the other hand, Hugh S was only 11 when he came to Canada with his brother and stayed separate from his brother when he arrived i.e. did not live anywhere near him. It is very hard to connect the dots!
I will be going to Lachute soon where Alexander Pollock is buried and will photograph the tombstone and check it again. I do remember it being white stone and the engraving very hard to read. I will take a pencil this time and follow the engraving to high light the letters.
Lastly, there was no obituary found for James Neil in Jersey City so just another dead end! Very discouraging!
Thanks again Jack.
Hugh
Pollock, Pollick, Polick, Neil, Boll, Livingston
-
Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Pollock or Pollick of Williamsborough
Hi Hugh,
I use a soft brush to clean any stones that need it before taking photos.
And sometimes a wooden lollipop stick if there is a lot of moss or dirt in the lettering.
(but only on stones that are deeply carved and won't be harmed - never on any that are fragile!)
I then carefully use coloured chalks to highlight the names, dates etc.
e.g. usually white chalk for black or dark stones, and blue for light or white ones.
The reason for using chalk is that it won't damage anything.
After finishing i brush most of it off; any traces left are washed away when it next rains.
Jack
I use a soft brush to clean any stones that need it before taking photos.
And sometimes a wooden lollipop stick if there is a lot of moss or dirt in the lettering.
(but only on stones that are deeply carved and won't be harmed - never on any that are fragile!)
I then carefully use coloured chalks to highlight the names, dates etc.
e.g. usually white chalk for black or dark stones, and blue for light or white ones.
The reason for using chalk is that it won't damage anything.
After finishing i brush most of it off; any traces left are washed away when it next rains.
Jack
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LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Must remember to pack a lollipop stick next time 
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talkhugh
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:15 pm
- Location: Quebec, Canada
Pollocks/Pollicks
Hi Jack,
I went to see the tombstone of Alexander Pollock today. You were right.
I marked it as you suggested and it was clearly "Native of Williamwood" and not Williams borough.
Does that confirm your thinking of their gradual move toward Glasgow and never being near Paisley??
Hugh
I went to see the tombstone of Alexander Pollock today. You were right.
I marked it as you suggested and it was clearly "Native of Williamwood" and not Williams borough.
Does that confirm your thinking of their gradual move toward Glasgow and never being near Paisley??
Hugh
Pollock, Pollick, Polick, Neil, Boll, Livingston
-
Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Pollocks/Pollicks
Hi Hugh,
Williamwood does seem to make much more sense than Williamsborough / Williamsburgh (Paisley).
Busby, Cathcart, Williamwood are all within a mile or two of each other - and all aren't that far south of the Gorbals either.
Which might suggest that the POLLOCKs were probably never in Paisley at all.
(they may have been at some point - but going by what is known at present this seems doubtful)
Possibly James, the father, was employed in a farming related occupation?, hence the different birthplaces of his children.
(my own GF was a ploughman, and 11 of his 19 children had different birthplaces...)
Much of the south Gorbals area was still very much countryside in the early 1800s, and so plenty of fields to work.
The will of Hugh S lists all his surviving relatives; but maybe they are who Hugh thought were still living?
Going back to John & James LIVINGSTON.
IF they were the "Two Scottish nephews" then there is a fair chance Hugh knew nothing of John's early death in 1868.
But to be the mentioned nephews would mean Margaret POLICK is the sister of Hugh S.
Quite good circumstantial evidence that she was, but we have no proof.
I know you've been searching a long time, and i really don't know what more you can do.
Pollock was a very popular name in that part of Renfrewshire.
In the 1841 census there are about 250 of the name, and a few more in 1851.
So like before - i'm stuck!![[help]](./images/smilies/help-sos.gif "[help]")
As you say; it would be nice to have some luck; looks like it's sorely needed!
Jack
Williamwood does seem to make much more sense than Williamsborough / Williamsburgh (Paisley).
Busby, Cathcart, Williamwood are all within a mile or two of each other - and all aren't that far south of the Gorbals either.
Which might suggest that the POLLOCKs were probably never in Paisley at all.
(they may have been at some point - but going by what is known at present this seems doubtful)
Possibly James, the father, was employed in a farming related occupation?, hence the different birthplaces of his children.
(my own GF was a ploughman, and 11 of his 19 children had different birthplaces...)
Much of the south Gorbals area was still very much countryside in the early 1800s, and so plenty of fields to work.
The will of Hugh S lists all his surviving relatives; but maybe they are who Hugh thought were still living?
Going back to John & James LIVINGSTON.
IF they were the "Two Scottish nephews" then there is a fair chance Hugh knew nothing of John's early death in 1868.
But to be the mentioned nephews would mean Margaret POLICK is the sister of Hugh S.
Quite good circumstantial evidence that she was, but we have no proof.
I know you've been searching a long time, and i really don't know what more you can do.
Pollock was a very popular name in that part of Renfrewshire.
In the 1841 census there are about 250 of the name, and a few more in 1851.
So like before - i'm stuck!
As you say; it would be nice to have some luck; looks like it's sorely needed!
Jack
-
talkhugh
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:15 pm
- Location: Quebec, Canada
Pollocks/Pollicks
Hi Jack,
Thanks for that info again and I think we need a lot more good luck with this one!
A question - have we searched for Margaret Pollock Livingston's parents as far as we can? I think you said you did but having a hard time giving up on that idea now.
Hugh
Thanks for that info again and I think we need a lot more good luck with this one!
A question - have we searched for Margaret Pollock Livingston's parents as far as we can? I think you said you did but having a hard time giving up on that idea now.
Hugh
Pollock, Pollick, Polick, Neil, Boll, Livingston
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Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Pollocks/Pollicks
Hi Hugh,
I've tried looking for Margaret POLLOCK's birth, nothing in the IGI or the LDS Vital Index CD.
(these are mainly Church of Scotland records)
Her parents may have been members of another church (eg Secession etc.), but this seems doubtful?
Only for the reason that her two sons, John & James, married in the Church of Scotland.
That's not in any way conlusive though.
I think you've already seen the original OPR pages of these two marriages?
Nothing though that adds anything more to what you already know.
--
OPR 644-2. Vol. 7. Page 55 (Marriages - Gorbals)
March 1831.
"James NEIL in Hutchesontown & Janet POLICK in the same street,
Married by Hugh Sorley, 29 March 1831"
--
OPR 64-2. Vol. 7. Page 252 (Marriages - Gorbals)
12 January 1840.
"John LIVINGSTON & Margaret POLLOCK both of this Parish,
Married by ______ "
--
And with Margaret dying around 1845 in North Berwick, it looks like a dead end on who her parents were.
Unless there is a gravestone with really good info...just wishful thinking.
Maybe try contacting East Lothian Council to see if there are any Cemetery Name Indexes for North Berwick?
Sorry i can't think of anything positive at the moment that might help....
Jack
I've tried looking for Margaret POLLOCK's birth, nothing in the IGI or the LDS Vital Index CD.
(these are mainly Church of Scotland records)
Her parents may have been members of another church (eg Secession etc.), but this seems doubtful?
Only for the reason that her two sons, John & James, married in the Church of Scotland.
That's not in any way conlusive though.
I think you've already seen the original OPR pages of these two marriages?
Nothing though that adds anything more to what you already know.
--
OPR 644-2. Vol. 7. Page 55 (Marriages - Gorbals)
March 1831.
"James NEIL in Hutchesontown & Janet POLICK in the same street,
Married by Hugh Sorley, 29 March 1831"
--
OPR 64-2. Vol. 7. Page 252 (Marriages - Gorbals)
12 January 1840.
"John LIVINGSTON & Margaret POLLOCK both of this Parish,
Married by ______ "
--
And with Margaret dying around 1845 in North Berwick, it looks like a dead end on who her parents were.
Unless there is a gravestone with really good info...just wishful thinking.
Maybe try contacting East Lothian Council to see if there are any Cemetery Name Indexes for North Berwick?
Sorry i can't think of anything positive at the moment that might help....
Jack