John Skinner - can you decipher this entry please?

[WilmaM]

I have John's birth but not Ann's, but I'm doubtful of getting their deaths. In researching the Parish of Drumoak in "The Statistical Accounts of Scotland", I found the statement that the parish had never kept death records, so if that was the case elsewhere .....

Have you tried for gravestones?

I checked the Aberdeen Family history site http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/ and they have a searchable database for MI's .
There are 11 John Skinners:
booklet: Kirkyard of Banchory-Ternan (AA107)
burial ground: Banchory-Ternan
stone: 128
Catherine Skinner 1852
Isabella Skinner 1861
William Skinner 1873
John Skinner 14 Jan.1888
Christina Ingram 25 Mar. 1899

stone: 237
Robert Skinner 17 Oct.1859
William Skinner 16 Jan.1878
Harvey Skinner 9 Feb.1884
Joseph Skinner 1 Oct.1885
Jane Fraser 17 Dec.1887
John Skinner 25 Mar.1888

Confusingly both of those died in the same year!

The other entries are from the graveyards at: Macduff, Drumblade, Kinnedder, Skene, Leslie, Tarves and Udney.

There are no other details, they will be found in the books - perhaps somebody has a copy or could look it up for you in a library?

2 Anne Ross in the same place:
booklet: Kirkyard of Banchory-Ternan (AA107)
burial ground: Banchory-Ternan
stone: 245
Robert Adams 27 Sept.1890
Ann Ross 26 Apr.1910

stone: 451
George Masson 25 June 1892
John Masson 2 Jan.1896
William Masson 9 Aug.1909
Ann Ross 23 May 1913
James Masson 15 June 1929
but they seem far to young to be of interest.

Not everyone of course had a gravestone, and not all stones have survived or can be read now but it's always worth a shot.

[unklee]

Gee thanks WilmaM, that is very helpful. I do all my research on the web (I live in Australia) and while I do a lot of searching to find useful sites, I still miss some. Getting a reference like this is extremely useful thanks.

The John Skinner on stone 128 is the child born in 1824 that I started this thread with. He married Christina (Christian) Ingram who died in 1899, so there is no doubt there. Isabella may be their daughter (born 1859) and William may be their son (b 1850) but I don't know who Catherine is.

John Skinner on stone 237 may be his alleged father. In favour of this is that John's wife was Jean (later Jane) Fraser, but against this is the fact that John Jnr's death documentation (14 Jan 1888) says his father John is deceased. I will need to check more, but perhaps this is a different relative (?)

Yes, the Ross ones are more problematic. In 1851 there were three women named Ann Ross in the one household - George Ross's wife (51), his sister (45) and his daughter (10). I suppose the latter could easily have lived to 1910 (aged 70) or 1913 (aged 73), so one of them could be her.

Thanks again for the help and the link.

[Currie]

Re Stone 237,

The Dundee Courier & Argus and Northern Warder, Friday, February 15, 1884.
At Haughead, Laurencekirk, on the 9th inst., Harvey Skinner, youngest son of the late John Skinner, teacher, Kennerty, Banchory-Ternan, aged 38 years.

Alan

[WilmaM]

So Currie neither of the John Skinners on Stones 128 or 237 can be the teacher one?

As they both died in 1881 and the Teacher died before his son's death in 1884.

Sometimes discarding the bits that don't fit helps.

[Currie]

Hello Wilma, here he is.

The Dundee Courier & Argus, Wednesday, March 28, 1883
DEATHS.
At Mill of Beltie, Kincardine O'Neil, on the 25th inst., John Skinner, late schoolmaster, Kennerty of Raemoir, in the 80th year of his age.

All the best,
Alan

[nelmit]

So Currie neither of the John Skinners on Stones 128 or 237 can be the teacher one?

As they both died in 1881 and the Teacher died before his son's death in 1884.

Sometimes discarding the bits that don't fit helps.

I wonder if stone 237 has been mis-transcribed. A search at SP shows a death in 1883 of a John Skinner age 79 at Kincardine O'Neil.

This is where John, School Teacher/Farmer and married to Jane Fraser, was living in 1881.

A look at this death entry at SP should give his parents names.

Regards,
Annette

Later................oh I see Alan has confirmed this is the right man.

[unklee]

Thanks everyone, this is excellent and resolves things nicely. I now know where and when both John Skinners died, though I still don't know when Ann Ross died.

This latest information shows that I need to learn how to use the newspapers. Is there a site I should know that gives access to a range of papers?

Meanwhile, I have been working on trying to verify that I have identified the John Skinner and Ann Ross in the baptismal notice I started with, and I feel happy I have done that. The notice says Ann lived at Burn of Bennie and John at Woodend (which appears to have been the name of a cottage in the Burn of Bennie area) before he recently moved to nearby Drumoak.

The 1841 census shows only 15 people living at Burn of Bennie - 2 older ladies, the Ross family (Ann Ross living with her brother George and his family) and the Skinner family (John's mother and 3 of his brothers). The same applies in 1851, thought there are a few other people as well. So it seems as certain as we can get about these things that the same families were there in 1824 and we have identified the correct families, and they lived close to each other. When John found out Ann was pregnant (whether he was responsible or not) he shot through to Drumoak, said it wasn't him, and married someone else 2 years later. Ann seems to have had an unfortunate life, apparently never marrying and being listed as a pauper in both the 1841 & 1851 censuses (I'm not exactly sure what that entailed, but I'm sure it wasn't good).

One final curiosity. John Skinner's family were all farm labourers, yet he managed to become a school master, but ended his life as a crofter. I wonder how he managed to get more of an education than most people in his position?

Thanks again for the wonderful help.

[Currie]

Hello Unklee,

You can get free access to many old newspapers from home by getting a readers card from the National Library of Australia. I think you said that's where you are. Your State Library may offer access to the same or additional databases. Browse these pages http://www.nla.gov.au/app/eresources/li ... &sort_dir=

Some early Skinners at Woodend of Leys. Maybe William was his father?

The Aberdeen Journal, Wednesday, July 29, 1812. An advertisement asking for information about a 14 year old runaway girl. One of the persons to contact was Mr. William Skinner, Wood-end of Leys, Banchory.

The Aberdeen Journal, Wednesday, August 18, 1819. The results of a Cattle, Horse and Sheep Show at Banchory Ternan. Mr. Skinner, Woodend of Leys, won what looks like a 3 Guinea prize for having the second best three year old Stot.

The Aberdeen Journal, Wednesday, August 14, 1822. A notice inviting lodgement of any claims on the funds of the deceased William Skinner, late in Woodend of Leys.


Parliamentary Papers, 1841 Session 1 (64) Answers made by schoolmasters in Scotland to queries circulated in 1838, by order of the Select Committee on Education in Scotland.

There were 40 questions, and John Skinner gave the answers for Kennerty School. According to him he was educated at King's College, Aberdeen, appointed as teacher by the parents, no salary, and has to work at agriculture during vacations.

Questions part 1 - http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad28 ... 397cdc.jpg
Questions part 2 - http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad28 ... 63db86.jpg

Answers part 1 - http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad28 ... 06f057.jpg
Answers part 2 - http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad28 ... 70a180.jpg

Hope that's useful,
Alan

[unklee]

Hi Alan, yes, that is very interesting and useful. Thanks a lot.

It gives some good background, it tells me when William Skinner died (if he is the William Skinner father of John, and I haven't been able to find any others yet) and the information about the school is very interesting. It also means I'll have to re-think and re-check a few things.

I started with a denied paternity claim by John Skinner, and there were Skinners living next door to the girl, Ann Ross, and the accused John Skinner was formerly at Woodend in Leys, but had recently moved to Drumoak. Two years later a John Skinner married in Drumoak and he became the schoolmaster in Banchory (identified by his and his wife's names and ages in the 1841 census).

So the only really doubtful thing is whether the John who shot through to Drumoak in 1824 was the same John who married in Drumoak in 1826. There would have been about 100 men 15-30 in Drumoak at this time according to The Statistical Accounts of Scotland, so there could have been two or more John Skinners, but so far I haven't found another one. So I feel reasonably confident about the connection, but far from certain.

But it does make me wonder. The Skinners seem to be a relatively poor farming family - for instance the 1841 census shows the family headed by Elizabeth (William died in 1822 according to your information) and 3 sons, all apparently unmarried but aged 20-35, the oldest listed as a farmer and the other two working as farm labourers (which I understand means they didn't own or rent land but simply worked for others, and were generally the poorest of the rural community). Yet John managed to attend Kings College Aberdeen and become a schoolmaster. Perhaps that wasn't unusual, perhaps I just don't understand the times at all. And his mother's occupation is listed as "independent", so does that mean she may have had more money than I imagine? I just don't know.

So I still have food for thought, but this has been very helpful, thanks.

PS Thanks for the info about the NLA - I see you too are an Aussie! I have used Trove to find newspapers in Australia, and I think NLA for other things, but I had no idea that if I got a card I could access stuff from Scotland. Thanks heaps. I still have so much to learn!

[SarahND]

Hello unklee,

The social mobility of the Scots has always impressed my European husband. For example, when I was looking for my lot I found a Peter Giles born in Strichen, Aberdeenshire in 1860, the illegitimate son of a farm overseer and the farmer's daughter, who received a scholarship to go to university in Aberdeen and eventually became a famous academic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Giles_(philologist)

You won't find the illegitimate birth mentioned in the many biographical sketches of this man, but it is right there on his birth certificate... See, for example, the entry in the Dictionary of National Biography: http://oxfordindex.oup.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/33402
Whatever the biographers might choose to believe, this child was known as illegitimate, his mother never married and his father went on to marry someone else and have a large family in another part of the country. So it can't have been an easy road for him to travel, but he nonetheless was able to get a good education and make a distinguished name for himself.

I believe that if the local school teacher recommended a child who seemed promising, there were various scholarships possible.

Best wishes,
Sarah