muir: hit a bickwall

katrina42 · Post by **katrina42** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:02 pm

can only find one james connected to a daniel but it's in abt 1799 way before james was born.and i cannot find daniel or jane in ayr or a marrige for them.

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:33 pm

Hi Katrina,

This is my take on the certificate:

1865
On the Twentyseventh
day of June at
Carrick Street Ayr
After Banns according
to the Forms of the
Church of Scotland

James Muir
Mason
Widower
43
Carrick Street
Ayr

Father: Daniel Muir
Weaver Decd
Mother: Jane Muir
M.S. Park Decd

Agnes McWilliam
her + mark
William Menzies Wit.
George William Smirrel Wit
Sewer, Widow
42
Carrick Street
Ayr

David McWilliam
Shoemaker
Helen McWilliam
M.S. Limond
Deceased

William Menzies
Minister of Ayr
George William Smirrell
Witness
Isabella Russell
Witness

1865
June 30th
at Ayr

M Rutherton
Registrar

katrina42 wrote:can only find one james connected to a daniel but it's in abt 1799 way before james was born.and i cannot find daniel or jane in ayr or a marrige for them.

I think there are several possible reasons for this. The marriage of Daniel and Jane may well have taken place in Ireland, so wouldn't show up on SP. James' birth was supposedly in Ayr, but in 1821 one was not required to register a birth. The OPR births that show up on SP are Church of Scotland. Coming from Ireland, the Muirs may well have been Catholic, so even if the children were baptized in Scotland, it would not show up. You would have to go to the National Archives in Edinburgh to look at Catholic births, I believe...

All the best,
Sarah

Post by **SarahND** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:26 am

In 1861 we have the two witnesses in the same household

Conveniently located down the street from the Muirs:

1861
10 Carrick Street, Ayr, Ayrshire
George Smerril, 35, Head, born Ayr, Ayrshire, Sawyer
Janet Smerril, 35, Wife, born Ayr, Ayrshire
Margret Smerril, 11, Daughter, born Ayr, Ayrshire, Scholar
James Smerril, 9, Son, born Ayr, Ayrshire, Scholar
George Smerril, 7, Son, born Ayr, Ayrshire
Alexander Smerril, 5, Son, born Ayr, Ayrshire, Scholar
Janet Smerril, 3, Daughter, born Ayr, Ayrshire
Isabella Russell, 25, Boarder, born Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Dressmaker

I love looking for that surname

If you choose Soundex you get all the variations from Summerhill>Summerrill>Smerrill>Smerl and can just hear the pronunciation reducing the number of syllables over the years

Great stuff!

katrina42 · Post by **katrina42** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:55 pm

I don't think there would have been a catholic connection, no offence to anyone but my grandad was a right orange man and my dad used to sing the orange walk song to my mum when they had a row as my mum's a mcguire....

Post by **SarahND** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:31 pm

I wouldn't rule it out, though. That was what, 4 generations earlier-- or was it 5? Our ancestors often surprise us! Or, they could have belonged to another protestant church that was not Church of Scotland. In both cases NAS is your best bet for finding records, if such exist.

All the best,
Sarah

katrina42 · Post by **katrina42** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:44 pm

I have been sitting here trying to place all of this together, if they were Irish then it would probably have to have been from the north and i did try and find a death cert for daniel muir but couldn't ,there were no more daniel's which i thought strange, but then again there was only one malcolm,I too thought Andrew or James would have been this one's name , oh well back to work !

Post by **SarahND** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:33 pm

It is certainly possible that a mistake (intentional or not) was made on one certificate, and it's always worth while to come at it from another angle to verify. I forget whether or not you have James the mason's death certificate and if his parents are listed there?

If Jane Park Muir died before 1855, her death cert can't be consulted for her husband's name. I don't find a plausible Jane Muir, other surname Park in the Statutory Death Register between 1855 and 1865 (when she was deceased, according to James' marriage record).

There is always Mary, who was 15 in the 1851 census, and supposedly Jane Park Muir's daughter and possibly Daniel's daughter also. If one could trace her (a challenge with a name like Mary!) her marriage or death record could help.

Let us know if you get any relevant certificates and what they say!

Regards,
Sarah

katrina42 · Post by **katrina42** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:26 pm

the only james muir i get on sp is son of james muir and janet forrest if anyone wants that certificate i will upload it.

Post by **SarahND** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:42 pm

I noticed looking back on your other topic that Andrew had found what looked like James' death cert in 1875, but no parents listed

AndrewP wrote: I found three "possibles" for James Muir deaths in Ayr in the right age group / estimated birth year. On looking at two of them, they can be ruled out (wrong spouse). The third one, in 1875, has him listed as a stone mason (was a mason on Margaret's dc). Unfortunately the informant (steward of the asylum) didn't know James' late wife's name, or his parents' names.

I don't see Agnes or any of the children in 1881-- what happened to them?

Anyway, James' death looks like it won't help, if that is his death in 1875.

Regards,
Sarah

katrina42 · Post by **katrina42** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:49 pm

Am trying an internet search for mary etc.