Born but not Registered after 1855?.....

Allison · Post by **Allison** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:02 pm

Good afternoon everyone!
I have a question which hopefully someone can answer. My great-grandmother, Elizabeth Gillespie, was born in 1860 (she is listed as a year old in 1861). I have searched Scotland's People using every derivative of her first name and three last names but she is no where to be found.
Her mother was Jean McKellar ms McDougall but was living with Joseph Gillespie at the time of the birth. I thought after 1855 all births had to be registered.

Any thoughts on where I might go with this?

Allison

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:11 pm

Hi Allison

What name is used in 1861 and what is the birthplace shown?

Jean

Allison · Post by **Allison** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:46 pm

In 1861 she is listed as Elizabeth Gillespie born in Greenock but she doesn't show up anywhere in Scotland's People which makes me wonder why she wouldn't have been registered and there are too many churches in Greenock to try and figure out where she might have been baptised, if she ever was baptised.

Allison

Post by **AnneM** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:43 pm

This may be a daft question but have you looked for her under M*Kellar and M*Douga* ?? Or even Gilespie with one l.

Anne

Post by **AndrewP** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:29 pm

I tried an IGI search on batch C115641 (Greenock births 1855-1875) using 1859 ± 2 years.
first name = Elizabeth and mother's first name = Jean - no useful results
first name = Elizabeth and father's surname = Gillespie - no useful results
first name = Elizabeth and father's first name = Joseph - no useful results

The IGI is quite tolerant of name variations and spelling variations, so if she was born there, then there is no sign of her by these combinations of names.

Tried the same for the neighbouring Registration Districts of Inverkip, Port Glasgow and Kilmacolm - still no good results.

Have you any other documents - census, marriage certificate, or death certificate that you can use to verify the age? Also, if you have her on any other censuses, where do they give as a birthplace? Got to clutch at straws for this one.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

Allison · Post by **Allison** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:24 am

"Have you any other documents - census, marriage certificate, or death certificate that you can use to verify the age? Also, if you have her on any other censuses, where do they give as a birthplace? Got to clutch at straws for this one."

I'm glad to see that it isn't a figment of my imagination. I've tried the IGI and Scotland's People with all kinds of variations of mother, father, surname, and first name spellings and come up with zilch over the years.

I have two marriage certificates, one in 1876 to William Brown and one in 1891 to Daniel McFadyen which state that she was born in Greenock. On the 1876 marriage certificate she states she is 18 years of age which threw me for a while until I saw the 1860 census which stated that she was a year old. Elizabeth has not been consistent about her age at any point in her life.

The 1861, 1871, 1881, and 1891 census all state she was born in Greenock as does her death certificate of 1884. Other than the 1871 census which shows her as Elizabeth McKellar living with her mother Jean McKellar and her brother, Donald McKellar, all the other documentation show her as Elizabeth Gillespie (or a variation thereof--Gillispie).

I have searched the records at St. John's Episcopal Church, Greenock and St. Mary's Roman Catholic Church, Greenock plus a couple of other Episcopal registers from the area and still come up with no christening.

It is like looking for a needle in a haystack. As stated originally, I thought that all births after 1855 were to be registered so I'm definitely puzzled on this one.

BTW, her sister's birth doesn't show up in the OPR's either and Mary was born around 1854 to Jean and Joseph Gillespie. I didn't even realize there was a sister until last year when I was given the 1861 census information and there was Mary, two step-brothers, and Elizabeth (who was younger than originally thought).

I'll keep clutching at all the ideas you people provide.

Allison

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:57 am

Did Elizabeth have a sister? Reason I ask is that there is only one Donald McKellar of siblingish age born abt 1852 in Greenock in 1881. His mother was Jane and a niece was Jane McD Nicol:

Dwelling: 18 Bruce St
Census Place: West Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203574 GRO Ref Volume 564-3 EnumDist 25 Page 9
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Jane MC KELLAR W 63 F Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Donald MC KELLAR U 29 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Baker
Thomas NICOL M 25 M Milngavie, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Son In Law
Occ: Engine Keeper
Jane NICOL M 23 F Greenock
Rel: Daur
Jane Mc D. NICOL 11 m F Greenock
Rel: Grand Daur

Although it doesn't now, Bruce Street used to lead onto Nicholson Street where Elizabeth and William Brown were staying.

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:12 am

Allison wrote:"Have you any other documents - census, marriage certificate, or death certificate that you can use to verify the age? Also, if you have her on any other censuses, where do they give as a birthplace? Got to clutch at straws for this one."

I'm glad to see that it isn't a figment of my imagination. I've tried the IGI and Scotland's People with all kinds of variations of mother, father, surname, and first name spellings and come up with zilch over the years.

I have two marriage certificates, one in 1876 to William Brown and one in 1891 to Daniel McFadyen which state that she was born in Greenock. On the 1876 marriage certificate she states she is 18 years of age which threw me for a while until I saw the 1860 census which stated that she was a year old. Elizabeth has not been consistent about her age at any point in her life.

The 1861, 1871, 1881, and 1891 census all state she was born in Greenock as does her death certificate of 1884. Other than the 1871 census which shows her as Elizabeth McKellar living with her mother Jean McKellar and her brother, Donald McKellar, all the other documentation show her as Elizabeth Gillespie (or a variation thereof--Gillispie).
I have searched the records at St. John's Episcopal Church, Greenock and St. Mary's Roman Catholic Church, Greenock plus a couple of other Episcopal registers from the area and still come up with no christening.

It is like looking for a needle in a haystack. As stated originally, I thought that all births after 1855 were to be registered so I'm definitely puzzled on this one.

BTW, her sister's birth doesn't show up in the OPR's either and Mary was born around 1854 to Jean and Joseph Gillespie. I didn't even realize there was a sister until last year when I was given the 1861 census information and there was Mary, two step-brothers, and Elizabeth (who was younger than originally thought).

I'll keep clutching at all the ideas you people provide.

Allison

Allison,

Any chance you could upload the 1861 census to the gallery or if not what were Elizabeth's stepbrother's names and ages and where were they born?

Perhaps this is not the correct family in 1871.

I don't understand why Jean would call herself Gillespie in 1861 and revert back to her married name in 1871 or am I not following this correctly.?

.

I think the family Andy is showing in 1881 (and perhaps the one you viewed) is the family of John Mckellar and Jean Mcdonald who married in 1839.
Is the Jean McDougall McKellar you are trying to follow the one who married Alexander McKellar in 1838?

More food for thought anyway, sorry if I'm confusing the issue.

Annette M

Allison · Post by **Allison** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:00 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions. I uploaded the 1861 Census to the gallery this morning. (Thanks to whomever rotated the image--I just rectified it in my office after coming off the floors and went to load it up and it was already done!!!) Jean McDougall married Alexander McKellar in 1838 and had two sons, Daniel aka Donald and Alexander. The 1841 census shows Jean as 22 years of age with Daniel age 2 living on Vennel Street; Alexander was born around 1843.

Suggestion has been made that sometime after Alexander's birth, Alex Sr. abandoned Jean and Jean possibly lived with Joseph Gillespie for security.

Joseph died in 1873, a blind, single gentleman at the Greenock Poorhouse. Jean and Joseph at some point in time prior to 1871 quit their living arrangements as Jean, Donald/Daniel and Elizabeth were all living at 10 St. Michael Place in the 1871 census.

It is a strange and convoluted history.

Allison

Image uploaded: - http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-188
.

sporran · Post by **sporran** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:56 pm

Hello Allison,

thank you for posting the image of the 1861 census, which helps enormously.

The enumerator has listed the people in the order that suggests different relationships to those previously thought. The listing implies that Joseph Gillespie is the father of Mary and Elizabeth but that Jean is not their mother. Similarly, the stepsons are Jean's children but Joseph is not their father.

I can not find a likely death for a female Gillespie in Greenock before 1861, so there is a possibility that Elizabeth was born illegitimately. Further, if Joseph Gillespie was not present at the registration then his name could not appear on the entry.

This leaves you with a huge slog, which is to find all the Elizabeths born in Greenock during 1859 and 1860, get the mothers' names for the illegitimate ones, and find out if any of them died. There are 40 with a surname starting "M", so it is a substantial task even at New Register House. And that assumes that the age of 1 in 1861 is correct. Hard to get wrong, you would think, but all her subsequent records put her birth around 1857-8. To depress you further, Elizabeth's mother may not have died, but abandoned her children.

Have you found a death entry for her, and does it give fresh information?

Regards,

John

TalkingScot.com

Born but not Registered after 1855?.....

Born but not Registered after 1855?.....

Born but not Registered after 1855?

Re: "unregistered birth"