Hi
I've located in the Minor Records (Foreign Returns) the death certificate of a relative (a civil engineer) who died in 1918 in Changsha, China. The informant was his widow. However, the certificate doesn't cite the cause of death.
Does anyone know where I can obtain a fuller record? Would the deceased have been buried in China and, if so, where?
Cheers,
Rodeo
Death Overseas
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Currie
- Posts: 3924
- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
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Hello Rodeo,
Assuming it was reported on the same form as this sample there is no provision for the cause of death and therefore no reason why it would have been recorded. I suppose the reason for that is because of the additional complications in obtaining such information, especially in a certified form, in foreign countries as compared to where a death occurred in Scotland. The form is a report by the Consul of facts given to him without any consultation with a medical person. http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/conte ... _0002Z.tif
The reporting of the death to Consular officials would have been voluntary and the laws of China at that time would unlikely have required such action or the type of death registration accepted as normal practice in Scotland. The cause of death not being required on the reporting form your only chance of finding out what it was may be if it was recorded somewhere else, such as in a newspaper, records of his employer or his professional association, estate records, and so on. Have you tried the London Times or the Scotsman?
China is a long way from Scotland and it would be unlikely that a deceased person would be transported all that way. You would think that he would have been buried where he normally lived in China but even that is assuming that he died at that location and if not that his body was transported there.
On the same general subject here’s a discussion in 2006 between a Member of the Scottish Parliament and Paul Parr, Deputy Registrar General:
Dr Jackson: I have a quick question that relates to Fergus Ewing's point. Section 44(5)(b) says that a person falls within the subsection if "the person was normally resident in Scotland at the time of the event."
Say that somebody was abroad when they died. Are you saying that if they are normally resident in Scotland, there is no duty to register the death in Scotland?
Paul Parr: We are trying to capture someone who is normally resident in Scotland. Say there is a couple who are normally resident in Scotland, the lady is expecting a child, they go off on holiday somewhere abroad and the child is born abroad. There is always a legal requirement for them to ensure that the child is registered according to the regulations of the country in which the birth occurs. There is no requirement for that birth to be registered in Scotland under the existing law. We record only births, marriages, deaths, civil partnerships, adoptions and stillbirths that occur in Scotland.
A mechanism exists that allows someone who is, say, a relative of someone who dies in Spain to approach the British consul in Spain to ask for that death to be mirrored in the registers in the UK. What happens is that first, they register the death in Spain, then they go to the consul, the consul arranges for a translation of the registration to be put into the consul's own register of births, marriages and deaths and that page eventually works its way back to our registers. It usually takes up to about 18 months. It is a voluntary rather than a compulsory process and the consul usually charges a fee for the service.
Normally we do not capture births, marriages and deaths that occur outside Scotland. The book of Scottish connections would not denude someone of their obligation in the country where the birth, marriage or death happened; we are just saying that if they also want the event registered in the book of Scottish connections, we can do that. It would apply not only to people's parents and grandparents; it would apply to the person as well.
Dr Jackson: I did not realise that if I went abroad and unfortunately died, that would not have to be registered by somebody back here.
Paul Parr: Sadly, many people have the same understanding.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/busin ... 6-0202.htm
Hope this helps,
Alan
Assuming it was reported on the same form as this sample there is no provision for the cause of death and therefore no reason why it would have been recorded. I suppose the reason for that is because of the additional complications in obtaining such information, especially in a certified form, in foreign countries as compared to where a death occurred in Scotland. The form is a report by the Consul of facts given to him without any consultation with a medical person. http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/conte ... _0002Z.tif
The reporting of the death to Consular officials would have been voluntary and the laws of China at that time would unlikely have required such action or the type of death registration accepted as normal practice in Scotland. The cause of death not being required on the reporting form your only chance of finding out what it was may be if it was recorded somewhere else, such as in a newspaper, records of his employer or his professional association, estate records, and so on. Have you tried the London Times or the Scotsman?
China is a long way from Scotland and it would be unlikely that a deceased person would be transported all that way. You would think that he would have been buried where he normally lived in China but even that is assuming that he died at that location and if not that his body was transported there.
On the same general subject here’s a discussion in 2006 between a Member of the Scottish Parliament and Paul Parr, Deputy Registrar General:
Dr Jackson: I have a quick question that relates to Fergus Ewing's point. Section 44(5)(b) says that a person falls within the subsection if "the person was normally resident in Scotland at the time of the event."
Say that somebody was abroad when they died. Are you saying that if they are normally resident in Scotland, there is no duty to register the death in Scotland?
Paul Parr: We are trying to capture someone who is normally resident in Scotland. Say there is a couple who are normally resident in Scotland, the lady is expecting a child, they go off on holiday somewhere abroad and the child is born abroad. There is always a legal requirement for them to ensure that the child is registered according to the regulations of the country in which the birth occurs. There is no requirement for that birth to be registered in Scotland under the existing law. We record only births, marriages, deaths, civil partnerships, adoptions and stillbirths that occur in Scotland.
A mechanism exists that allows someone who is, say, a relative of someone who dies in Spain to approach the British consul in Spain to ask for that death to be mirrored in the registers in the UK. What happens is that first, they register the death in Spain, then they go to the consul, the consul arranges for a translation of the registration to be put into the consul's own register of births, marriages and deaths and that page eventually works its way back to our registers. It usually takes up to about 18 months. It is a voluntary rather than a compulsory process and the consul usually charges a fee for the service.
Normally we do not capture births, marriages and deaths that occur outside Scotland. The book of Scottish connections would not denude someone of their obligation in the country where the birth, marriage or death happened; we are just saying that if they also want the event registered in the book of Scottish connections, we can do that. It would apply not only to people's parents and grandparents; it would apply to the person as well.
Dr Jackson: I did not realise that if I went abroad and unfortunately died, that would not have to be registered by somebody back here.
Paul Parr: Sadly, many people have the same understanding.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/busin ... 6-0202.htm
Hope this helps,
Alan
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Rodeo
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:14 am
Hi Alan
Thanks so much for your extremely informative reply.
Yes, the death certificate I have is the standard consular form. Unfortunately, my search of both The Scotsman and The London Times for an obituary turned up nothing.
I've since learned that my relative was an Associate Member of the Institution of Civil Engineers, so I'll send the ICE a query. An obituary may have been published in one of their journals.
I'll also try to find out if there is a foreign cemetery in Changsha.
Thanks again, Alan.
Cheers,
Rodeo
Thanks so much for your extremely informative reply.
Yes, the death certificate I have is the standard consular form. Unfortunately, my search of both The Scotsman and The London Times for an obituary turned up nothing.
I've since learned that my relative was an Associate Member of the Institution of Civil Engineers, so I'll send the ICE a query. An obituary may have been published in one of their journals.
I'll also try to find out if there is a foreign cemetery in Changsha.
Thanks again, Alan.
Cheers,
Rodeo
-
Currie
- Posts: 3924
- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
- Location: Australia
That’s okay Rodeo,
Here’s a few crumbs regarding deaths reported in The Times to have occurred at Changsha and some extra notes. Maybe they will be useful.
The Times, Wednesday, Jun 07, 1905
Rev. J. Hudson Taylor, died at Changsha.
Buried at Protestant Cemetery at Zhenjiang, Cemetery destroyed by Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Taylor
The Times, Tuesday, Aug 31, 1926
Oliver Robert Coales, H.B.M. Consul at Changsha and died there.
The same name appears on http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ but is a bit confusing.
The Times, Wednesday, Jan 19, 1927
Rev. Gilbert G. Warren
Nothing about where he was buried etc.
The Times, Tuesday, May 06, 1930
Malcolm Ronald Montgomery – Consular staff again.
Drowned at Changsha and later obit says only that he was buried at Changsha.
Good luck,
Alan
Here’s a few crumbs regarding deaths reported in The Times to have occurred at Changsha and some extra notes. Maybe they will be useful.
The Times, Wednesday, Jun 07, 1905
Rev. J. Hudson Taylor, died at Changsha.
Buried at Protestant Cemetery at Zhenjiang, Cemetery destroyed by Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Taylor
The Times, Tuesday, Aug 31, 1926
Oliver Robert Coales, H.B.M. Consul at Changsha and died there.
The same name appears on http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ but is a bit confusing.
The Times, Wednesday, Jan 19, 1927
Rev. Gilbert G. Warren
Nothing about where he was buried etc.
The Times, Tuesday, May 06, 1930
Malcolm Ronald Montgomery – Consular staff again.
Drowned at Changsha and later obit says only that he was buried at Changsha.
Good luck,
Alan
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Rodeo
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:14 am
Hi Alan
I had a look at all of the Changsha burials you cited. Yes, it's possible that my relative was buried in the Protestant cemetery destroyed during the Cultural revolution. Trying to find any record of local Changsha cemeteries, other than archaeological sites, has been a Sisyphean task.
I did discover, though, that the grandson of Lancelot Giles, the British Consul at the time and signatory of my relative's death certificate, donated the diaries, records and photos of Lancelot Giles to the ANU in Canberra. Incidentally, I'm also based in Oz.
I, likewise, did a search of The London Times using the keyword 'Changsha' and found an item of interest published in April 1918 (under the rubric 'Foreign Affairs Diary' or something similar) about Changsha having been recaptured by the Northerners with minimal fighting. I'm wondering if my relative was the victim of some unpleasantness due to the strong anti-foreign sentiment during that era or died of natural causes.
Thanks again for your help, Alan.
Cheers,
Rodeo
I had a look at all of the Changsha burials you cited. Yes, it's possible that my relative was buried in the Protestant cemetery destroyed during the Cultural revolution. Trying to find any record of local Changsha cemeteries, other than archaeological sites, has been a Sisyphean task.
I did discover, though, that the grandson of Lancelot Giles, the British Consul at the time and signatory of my relative's death certificate, donated the diaries, records and photos of Lancelot Giles to the ANU in Canberra. Incidentally, I'm also based in Oz.
I, likewise, did a search of The London Times using the keyword 'Changsha' and found an item of interest published in April 1918 (under the rubric 'Foreign Affairs Diary' or something similar) about Changsha having been recaptured by the Northerners with minimal fighting. I'm wondering if my relative was the victim of some unpleasantness due to the strong anti-foreign sentiment during that era or died of natural causes.
Thanks again for your help, Alan.
Cheers,
Rodeo