Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Birth, Marriage, Death

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Julie
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Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by Julie » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:33 pm

whilst on furlough at Crieff, Perthshire. (Stirling Castle Depot quarterly paylist) -

So why can't I find any death registration for him?

Have looked everywhere I can think of - ie Scotlandspeople online, Register House, Edinburgh. English records.

The Registrars at Crieff and Perth have also looked but to no avail. Perth crematorium for death records don't go back far enough.

He enlisted on 13th January 1840 at Crieff into the 71st Regiment of Foot and was stationed at Stirling Castle when he died. His wife was living at Berwick on Tweed with his daughters.

Have no idea how old he was as I haven't found him on any census and his personal army records haven't survived.

He married at the Lamberton Toll in 1847 so no parents or age quoted.

Any suggestions please???

LesleyB
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by LesleyB » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:30 pm

Hi Julie
Can you maybe give us a little more information, if you have it, about John so that he will be recognised if come across. e.g. do you know his wife's name (first name and her own surname?) Did they marry in Scotland?

Was it a census record in which you found his wife and daughters at Berwick on Tweed? Do you know the names of his daughters? Do you happen to know his parent's names too, or is that one of the problem areas?

Where did you find note of his death date? Was it a service record or similar? I expect you have tried this already, but have you searched also for MacLaren and/or other spelling variations such as McLaurin etc?

Best wishes
Lesley

Julie
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by Julie » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:43 pm

Hi Lesley

Yes I think I've looked at every combination of name McLaren, Laren, lernen, Mac McCl. I got his date of death from the Army quarterly Paylist of the 71st Regiment Depot at Stirling Castle. It also gives details of those soldiers who have been discharged, deserted or died. It gave his exact date of death 17 January 1859, whilst on furlough at Crieff and his wife Barbara was at Berwick. Given that they gave the exact date of death and it was in Scotland I had high hopes of finding out who his parents were and his age but can't find his death registered either in Scotland or England.

As he enlisted in 1840 I'm presuming that he would be born early to mid 1820's. I found part of the 71st Regiment at Aberdeen in 1841 census but John wasn't amongst them and I haven't yet found where the rest of the Regiment was.

I have a transcription of the entry at the Lamberton Toll (irregular cross border marriages by Henry Collins who's spelling's notorious) which is just inside the Scottish border about 3 miles north of Berwick on Tweed. (not on Scotlandspeople)

No 1967 Lamberton Toll Aug 8 1847
John McLernen of 71 Comrie to Barbra Hope of Berwick.
Wit. William Wright, Isabellea Dixon

When I saw it originally I thought perhaps the 71 was 21 and he came from Comrie but it could mean 71st Company
McLaren is the spelling in the Army records and on Barbara's second marriage in Edinburgh Dec 1861.

Have Barbara in the 1851 census at Berwick as a soldier's wife but he wasn't there and could have been overseas with the Regiment. I did try finding other soldiers from the 1841 census without success. I haven't found Barbara in the 1861 census so wonder where she and her youngest daughter Jane were hiding.

This is a real mystery.

LesleyB
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by LesleyB » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:18 am

Hi Julie
Thought you'd have tried with the spelling variatons - just checking! :wink:

I'm just wondering, not based on anything concrete, just thinkng aloud, but if he was in the army, if it was possible for his death to have occurred in Scotland and to not be registered in Scotland for the very reason that it was a death whilst on military service, so a military matter rather than a civil one. I'm not sure if that is likely. Maybe someone with more knowledge of things military will be able to advise. Just wondering too if there may be more info at the National Archives at Kew - service record or a mention in a description book or similar....? Have you explored this avenue?

It is a pity the marriage is not giving much detail, but it as you noted, it would be worth finding Barbara in 1861 just to see where she is and to confirm she is a widow at that date - which would certainly seem to be the case if she remarried later that year. I'm hope some of our brilliant detectives may be able to turn up something.

Best wishes
Lesley

Julie
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by Julie » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:34 am

Hi Lesley

I tried military deaths but they're for abroad and not UK.

My own feeling is that the Army thought his family would register the death and Barbara thought the Army had done so. So in the end no-one did.

Hoping desperately that wasn't the case and that somehow his death registration can be found.

Have tried the various spellings but might have missed a more obscure one - though if he died in Crieff then his death should have been registered there and they could only find an old man and not around the date of death given by the Army.

Unfortunately don't even know where he's buried either to check whether a burial entry had been made.

Thanks for your interest.

nelmit
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by nelmit » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:50 am

Hello Julie,

In 1851 Barbara McLaren , soldiers wife is living with her mother Margaret at Berwick along with daughter Margaret born 1850.
There is a wee Margaret McClaren age 12 born Berwickshire living at what appears to be an institution at Berwick in 1861.

I see the Barbara Farmer (nee Hope) in 1871 (and up to 1901) at Edinburgh with Thomas.

Are you sure Jane (born 1857 at Edinburgh) is Barbara Hope and John McLaren's daughter as I don't see a birth for her. Are you also positive that Barbara Hope who married Thomas Farmer is the widow of John McLaren.

Sorry this does absolutely nothing to help you re John but it's just to clarify we have the right people.

Regards,
Annette
Last edited by nelmit on Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

emanday
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by emanday » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:03 am

Julie wrote:My own feeling is that the Army thought his family would register the death and Barbara thought the Army had done so. So in the end no-one did.
Hi Julie,

I'm almost positive that by 1859 an undertaker would have needed a death certificate, but I'm hoping that someone else would know that for sure.

You could try contacting Stirling Castle. I've been there and they might be able to look him up for you. Worth a try?

Regards,

Mary
[b]Mary[/b]
A cat leaves pawprints on your heart
McDonald or MacDonald (some couldn't make up their mind!), Bonner, Crichton, McKillop, Campbell, Cameron, Gitrig (+other spellings), Clark, Sloan, Stewart, McCutcheon, Ireland (the surname)

Julie
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by Julie » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:11 am

Hi Annette

Yes that is Barbara with her mother Margaret Hope in Berwick in the 1851 census with her eldest daughter Margaret Ann McLaren b1849.

Margaret McClaren was in the Berwick workhouse in 1861 and after being placed with 2 different employers absconded. Think I found her in Edinburgh in 1871 census as Mary Ann.

John and Barbara had 2 other daughters Ann Jane born 1853 who died 1855 and
Jane bc1856 (birth reg not found) who died 1903 (listed as Jane Farmer with her mother and step-father in 1871 census.)married James Henderson listing John as her father.

Thomas and his brother Hugh Farmer were also both in the 71st Regiment though Hugh was in Canada for nearly 10 years whereas I don't think Thomas or John ever went. Hugh was in the infirmary at Stirling Castle in 1861 census but Thomas was on a ship returning from India in June 1861. So how or when Barbara met Thomas isn't known.

Hi Mary

Do they keep records at Stirling Castle? Who do I write to?

The Royal Highland Fusiliers museum at Glasgow lost a lot of records in a fire but sent me a booklet written by someone that gave some indication of where part of the regiment was at certain times. To find further information I went to Kew and viewed some Muster Lists - unfortunately there were 2 John McLarens who came and went and I didn't know which was the one I was looking for and got completely mixed up. I got Hugh Farmer's service docs but could find none for John McLaren or Thomas. Recently someone has researched for me and come back with the PayLists which gave enlistment dates and discharge dates and reason for discharge which was very useful and gave John's date and place of death.

As it wasn't that long after statutory registration perhaps it was one that slipped through the net as regards a death certificate for a burial.. I have no idea.

Do hope someone can enlighten me.

Any help most appreciated.

emanday
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by emanday » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:16 am

Julie wrote:The Royal Highland Fusiliers museum at Glasgow lost a lot of records in a fire but sent me a booklet written by someone that gave some indication of where part of the regiment was at certain times.
Actually, it's the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders who were based in Striling Castle in the 1850's (they of the Thin Red Line in the Crimean War), not the Royal Highland Fusiliers.

Write to the curator of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders museum at Stirling Castle, Stirling.
[b]Mary[/b]
A cat leaves pawprints on your heart
McDonald or MacDonald (some couldn't make up their mind!), Bonner, Crichton, McKillop, Campbell, Cameron, Gitrig (+other spellings), Clark, Sloan, Stewart, McCutcheon, Ireland (the surname)

Julie
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Re: Army states John McLaren died 17 January 1859

Post by Julie » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:47 am

Hi Mary

The 71st Regiment of Foot had at least 132 men stationed at Stirling according to their Regimental paylist between 1st January 1859 and 31st March 1859 - who were left as a Depot Battalion when the rest were overseas.

I will contact Stirling Castle and see if they can help though I don't think the Argyll & Suthrland Highlanders records will be able to but you never know.

Thanks again.

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