Can't find a marriage

Birth, Marriage, Death

Moderator: Global Moderators

ninatoo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Can't find a marriage

Post by ninatoo » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:22 pm

Hello all,

I am stuck trying to find a marriage for one of my ancestors, John O'Brien, to Ann McMahon between 1881, when John was single on the census and 1886, when John died. I have been flummoxed with this couple for a few years now, as the only John O'Brien/Ann McMahon marriage in a similar time frame is not them unless they both took identities of people actually living in Blantyre with their names but different parents (yes I have checked it out thoroughly :lol: ).

I have just recently found the birth of a child to this couple, Michael, born 1884 in Glasgow, and I was so was pleased to find a reference to a marriage date (1 July 1882, Glasgow). However it is not at SP. ](*,) Well, I knew it wouldn't be, after all the past searches I have done with many combinations of wild cards and spellings!

Can anyone suggest anything? I know people sometimes said they were married but weren't really, but Ann did keep her O'Brien surname when she married for the second time to William Ronald and that was about 15 years later....one would think that she kept it for a reason.

Can anyone suggest what to do from here, please?

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

JohnI
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 4:56 pm
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by JohnI » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:10 pm

Hello ninatoo,

I had a similar problem a couple of years back. I had a date for the marriage in 1863 of my gg grandparents on the son's birth record, but no sign of the marriage on sp. I e-mailed sp querying the omission. They replied stating that the marriage had been accidently missed off their index. It finally appeared on the index a few months later.

Perhaps this is what happened to you.

john

bleckie
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:51 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by bleckie » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:26 pm

Hi Nina

I did a quick search on SP using Wildcards as follows

male surname o*n
male forename John
female surname m*n
female forename a*n

searched all scotland only 1 match narrowed down to Lanark 1881 could this be yours unfortunatelly I have no credits left
having been searching for my brick wall ](*,)

Yours Aye
BruceL

Montrose Budie
Posts: 713
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:37 pm

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by Montrose Budie » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:02 pm

From 1855 onwards, as part of the statutory birth registration process in Scotland, there was no requirement to produce any documentary evidence of the stated marriage. It's a common misconception that such evidence was required at the time of registration of a birth.

OK, in a small rural parish the registrar, especially if he was the minister or the session clerk, might raise an eyebrow, or two!, if he didn't recognize the details of the 'claimed' marriage, but there wasn't anything he could do about it, i.e. he couldn't demand to see the marriage lines, the church evidence of a marriage, before completing the birth registration; never mind that a couple could easily claim that they had been married in different parish.

In a city registration district, of course, there was very little possibility of such "raised eyebrows".

In other words, a registrar just had no option but to believe what he was told.


This in the whole context, of course, that a so-called irregular marriage was quite legal in the eyes of Scots Law.

Something around 15%, or higher, - how much higher is not known, - of marriages at that time were irregular. That figure is based on the marriages later entered into the Register Books of Marriage following a court process leading to confirmation of the irregular marriage. This figure was regularly reported in the annual report of the Registrar General.

The missing statistic is just how many irregular marriages never led to such a court process of confirmation, so never turned up in the Register Books of Marriage.


So, we have here two possibilities.

1. The marriage was somehow missed off the index. A major problem here is that no specific district for the Glasgow marriage is given in the 1884 birth record for Michael, such as, for example, "Clyde District", - see one of the other births on the 1884 page containing Michael's birth registration. There were many registration districts in Glasgow, and it is unlikely that GROS would be able to check them all.

(One indication that a marriage could be irregular can be that, in the registrations of the births of a number of children, the place and date of the marriage varies from one birth registration to another, as there wouldn't be a piece of paper that the couple could refer to.

Unfortunately, another frequent reason for such variations, in the date at least, is that it was the father who was the informant, with, from much experience, the father surprisingly often getting the date wrong.)


2. The marriage between John and Ann was irregular, most probably a marriage by declaration, not subsequently confirmed by a Sheriff Court or other court action, and thereby entered into the relevant Register Book of Marriages.


Again, when a death was registered there was no requirement that the informant should produce documentary evidence on the names of the spouse(s) of the deceased. The registrar had no option but to record what he was told by the informant, as here, in 1918, the widower, William RONALD, reported that his deceased wife had been first married to John O'Brien.


I recently registered the death of an uncle of my wife. The GROS website advised that the birth and marriage certificates relating to the deceased should (almost implying "had to be"!) be taken along to the local registrar's office, except I knew that this was not required !

What I did take along with me was the death certificate of the deceased's brother, my father-in-law, to ensure that I reported the parents' names correctly, but even this is not a legal requirement.

mb

melody
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:19 am
Location: Telkwa, B.C. Canada

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by melody » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:04 pm

I have been reading this with great interest as I also cannot find a marriage. It's for Thomas Arnot or Arnot and Mary Ann Richardson M.S. Harrison. Posibly they were not married "officially' but why can't I find a birth reg. for their son? Their son Thomas Arnot marries Jane Grey at Alloa, Clackmannan 29 Dec 1899 and he gives his age as 19. Well I have looked at all the Thomas Arnot born 1880 and 1881, even with soundex on there are only 4. There are 2 for 1871 but as it's my neighbor's pounds I'm spending I am reluctant to try those two as well, as you'd think his age on the marriage reg. would be correct when he's only 19. I will contact Scotland's People and see if I can luck in with their having missed his registration, thanks for the suggestion. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
Melody
mlm

LesleyB
Posts: 8184
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Scotland

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by LesleyB » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:28 pm

Hi Melody
Does anyone have any other suggestions?
If you have not done so already, it would be a good idea to find him in a census, preferably as a child with his parents, so you are in no doubt it is the correct child, when his age is likely to be more accurate and a place of birth will be given. Not only should this help narrow down the possibilities, but should also establish if he was indeed born in Scotland or elsewhere.... also, you may see other children to the couple, whose births may give you a a date and place of marriage to work with.
even with soundex on there are only 4
Soundex is not usually very helpful...
e.g.
Soundex Code for Arnot = A653
Other surnames sharing this Soundex Code:
ARANETA | ARANT | ARENDS | ARMITAGE | ARMITSTEAD | ARNDT | ARNET | ARNETT | ARNOT | ARNOTT | ARRANTS | ARRENDELL | ARUNDEL | ARUNDELL | AURAND |
http://resources.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ ... xconverter

- try using wildcards instead, as this is a better way of searching to take into account spelling variaitons.

Best wishes
Lesley

nelmit
Posts: 4002
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:49 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by nelmit » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:48 pm

melody wrote:I have been reading this with great interest as I also cannot find a marriage. It's for Thomas Arnot or Arnot and Mary Ann Richardson M.S. Harrison. Posibly they were not married "officially' but why can't I find a birth reg. for their son? Their son Thomas Arnot marries Jane Grey at Alloa, Clackmannan 29 Dec 1899 and he gives his age as 19. Well I have looked at all the Thomas Arnot born 1880 and 1881, even with soundex on there are only 4. There are 2 for 1871 but as it's my neighbor's pounds I'm spending I am reluctant to try those two as well, as you'd think his age on the marriage reg. would be correct when he's only 19. I will contact Scotland's People and see if I can luck in with their having missed his registration, thanks for the suggestion. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
Melody
There is a Thomas Harrison birth indexed at SP in 1880 in Tillicoultry.

In 1881 at Tillicoultry he is shown as 'adopted son'.

Sophia Brown 77 Head
David Reid 25 Boarder
Mary Ann Harrison 24 Boarder
John Lockhart 22 Boarder
Mary McKinnon 7 Adopted Daughter
Thomas Arnot 10 Mo Adopted Son

This looks like the birth of sister Mary (McKinnon) -

MARY ANN HARRISON
Female

Birth:
26 MAR 1874 Tillicoultry, Clackmannan, Scotland

Parents:
Mother: MARY ANN HARRISON

Regards,
Annette
Last edited by nelmit on Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

ninatoo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by ninatoo » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:36 am

Thanks MB for the thorough reply. Those points to consider will be very useful to others as well as myself. I am aware that it may be an irregular marriage, but with a name like O'Brien, it is hard to find likely births of other children on which might be varying marriage dates. I think I was lucky to find Michael...he is the only one so far. Mother Ann signed the registration.

Thanks John, I will write to SP and ask them if they have left the marriage out of the index.

Thanks Bleckie, the one you found is likely the marriage between John O'Brien and Ann McMahon in Blantyre, Lanark 1881, but it is not them. Both sets of parents are incorrect and as far as I can research, are definitly real people (I checked the censuses and there was a family of McMahons in Blantyre in 1881 with father Martin etc).

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

melody
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:19 am
Location: Telkwa, B.C. Canada

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by melody » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:21 am

Lesley and Annette-Muchos Gracias for the great information and suggestions-I think some more credits need to be bought, I'll get to work on this. I recently gave a little workshop on Scottish genealogy and showed the participants how to use this site because it is always so helpful. The talking scot folks have done it again-Thanks!
mel
mlm

ninatoo
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Australia

Re: Can't find a marriage

Post by ninatoo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:02 pm

I emailed SP who referred me to the GRO because they can do nothing to fix a missed record (if that is the case). However, I went the the GRO page and couldn't see a place to write to. Anyone know?

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)