Searching for..Isobel Pirrie ? Found her thanks

[littlealison]

I have evidence that she was the first wife of John Little, b. Glasgow in 1812, bottlemaker. My ggrandfather. They married in 1837, don't know where. (He's in the working life section here, but this is about his wife.) I can't find him in any censuses until 1851, when he had remarried.

I can't find her anywhere. I have no birth date. It's likely that they were in Dumbarton in 1841, as their son John was born there.They had an earlier child Elizabeth, 1838 and two more in Glasgow, Isabella and Jane in '44 and '46. He was probably working in Dumbarton in the early 1840s - but where do I go from here, my resources being (very) limited? Can anyone help, please?

[WilmaM]

Is this the family in 1841?

Piece: SCT1841/496 Place: Dumbarton -Dunbartonshire Enumeration District: 5
Civil Parish: Dumbarton Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Dumbarton
Folio: 5 Page: 3
Address: Church Street
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
LITTLE John M 25 Publican & Bottlemaker Outside Census County (1841)
LITTLE Isabella F 25 Outside Census County (1841)
LITTLE Elizabeth F 3 Outside Census County (1841)
LITTLE John (Jr) M 3m Dunbartonshire
MORRISON Margt. F 16 Dunbartonshire
OBRIEN Catherine F 15 Female Servant Dunbartonshire

I found it on freecen http://www.freecen.org.uk

Unfortunately the 1841 doesn't give place of birth or relationships, and the ages are rounded down,
but still you have something to work to.

[littlealison]

That is so quick! It certainly looks like them. So Isabella, not Isobel, was about his age. It gives initials I haven't seen anywhere else.
'Publican' is definitely new! And with two servants, he wasn't doing too badly, was he?
So...John (2) was born in Dumbarton, but the others weren't. (I know 1841 censuses don't say.)
John (1) b Glasgow. Wonder where they were before? Married, 1837, somewhere else, where Elizabeth was born?
Anyway, many thanks to you - I will work on this! - Alison.

[WilmaM]

If you have them in 1851 that should tell you where Elizabeth was born.

[nelmit]

From the IGI -

JOHN LITTLE
Marriages:
Spouse: ISABELLA PIRRIE

Marriage:
25 FEB 1837 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

Regards,
Annette

[LesleyB]

It gives initials I haven't seen anywhere else.

The M and F are for male and female, if those are the initials you were thinking of, although the way they come after the names makes them look like middle initials.

So...John (2) was born in Dumbarton

...not necessarily in the town of Dumbarton, but somewhere in the county of Dunbarton, is all the 1841 census will give you, though the fact that they appear to be living in the town and seem to have been married there would suggest it is likely! I'd just be wary of making assumptions, as sometimes they can turn into what you believe are "facts" in your head and cause problems with your research later on.

Best wishes
Lesley

[littlealison]

Whoops, not initials. ....
Thanks for the marriage, Annette. I only had the year.
I'll try not to make too many assumptions! The later censuses keep saying born in Dumbarton....shire. OK.
However, in the 1851 census, only John (2) and Jane are with John and Janet, his second wife. Where the other two , Elizabeth and Isabella are then, I don't know. Perhaps with their mother, though I don't know what happened. I have not found a death date.
Thanks, everybody!- Alison

[killearnan]

However, in the 1851 census, only John (2) and Jane are with John and Janet, his second wife. Where the other two , Elizabeth and Isabella are then, I don't know. Perhaps with their mother, though I don't know what happened. I have not found a death date.

While it is possible that Isobel and the two girls are elsewhere, it is much more likely that they died between 1841 and 1851. That's still before civil registration started (1855), so many deaths weren't recorded, or were recorded minimally in parish records (Mrs. Little buried on such-and-such a date but no way to know which of the 6 Mrs. Littles in the parish is was.....). On top of that, with church reorganizations/disruptions, the 1840s seem to have been less than stellar for recording events

Sometimes you can find monumental inscriptions or other traces of the deaths -- but often the closest you will get to proof of death of one spouse is the remarriage of the other

My experience with tracking divorced/separated couples in the early/mid 1800s is more in the US than in Scotland, but I've found that the records for those seem do seem to have been kept more carefully -- less common and more likely to have legal involvement......

[carlineric]

I have the same situation for my 3rd great grandfather, he remarries in 1837 and the 1841 census does not show his children from his first marriage. I have not yet found any trace of a death either in the OPRs or monumental insciptions. I have recently picked up a clue from his second wife's family as they have a grandchild with them in both the 1841 and 1851 censuses and no trace of his parents. I seems likely that there was some type of epidemic in the area around 1835 which killed the the first wife and children. Cholera and typhus epidemics were still very common at this time.

Eric

[littlealison]

Thanks to everybody, I now feel I know a bit more about Isobel/Isabella Pirrie. And her husband! Any more is a bonus! - cheers, Alison