irish ancestors

[ishbel]

Hi folks,
I wonder if anyone can make sense of the attached.
This is an extract from the wedding certificate of my great grandfather, John Kelly and shows the name of his mother. According to what I can decipher, she is called Margaret Smith. However, on his death certificate his mother is given as Ann Madden
The other issue is the bride and groom's relationship to each other - this reads to me as NIECE.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Ishbel

John Kelly 1.JPG

[AndrewP]

Hi Ishbel,



Smith looks quite likely for the name in the image above, but I could not prove it. Do you have the birth certificates for any of the children of this couple? If the children were born in Scotland, then their mother's maiden surname should be on their birth certificates. It is not uncommon for the wrong information to be found on a death certificate, particularly if the informant to the registrar was not a close relative, or if the parents of the deceased were themselves deceased long ago and were not well known to the informant.

All the best,

AndrewP

[ishbel]

Hi Andrew,
No, I don't have any birth certificates for "Margaret Smith's" children, and it's more complicated. John's wife's mother is also given as Margaret Smith on John's marriage lines. It is very clear. He married Catherine Mackay and on her death certificate her mother's name is given as Margaret McAndrew! The marriage lines and death certificates are for the same people so I don't think I'm getting different families here.
I have tried searches on Irish genealogy websites under both mothers' names but have come up with nothing, particularly with a name like Kelly.
I'm also hampered by the fact that both Catherine Mackay and John Kelly were Irish-this is confirmed on multiple census returns-but as usual no county of birth is given on the Scottish censuses.
John and Catherine were married in Dundee in 1859, aged 21 and 19, so I have a rough idea of when they were born but that's all. Their witnesses do not appear to be related to them-so blank wall again.
Thanks, Andrew, for your suggestions.
Best wishes,
Ishbel

[Elwyn 1]

I would rely on the information on the marriage certificate in preference to that on the death certificate. Marriage certificate information was first hand from people who would normally know exactly who their parents were. Whereas the death certificate information is much more unreliable. The informant may never have met the deceased’s parents and, as AndrewP has said, the information about them is often wrong, just being the informants best guess.

Statutory registration of births only started in Ireland in 1864, RC marriages in 1864, and non RC marriages in April 1845. Prior to that you are reliant on church records. There are many gaps in the records and not all are on-line. So if you have no idea where in Ireland they came from, it can be extremely difficult to trace them.

Outside the big cities, few RC parishes have records prior to the 1820s. The Church of Ireland sometimes has records back to the 1700s but a lot of their records were lost in a fire in 1922 during the Irish civil war. Few Presbyterian records are on-line anywhere in Ireland.

[ishbel]

Thanks, Elwyn, I will take your's and Andrew's advice re the information on the marriage lines.
Best wishes,
Ishbel

[nelmit]

Hi Ishbel,

What were the addresses given for John and Catherine when they married?

Regards,
Annette

[ishbel]

Hi Annette,
They were both living in Scouringburn in Dundee - no number given.
Ishbel

[nelmit]

Hi Annette,
They were both living in Scouringburn in Dundee - no number given.
Ishbel

Shame there is no number.

So..if relationship of niece was given then it looks like John married his sister's daughter.

You say his mother's name is given as Margaret Smith but what about his father? And what name did Catherine give for her father? Were the parents still living in 1859?

Also - don't discount the witnesses - sometimes they really help when searching - what were their names?

I'm sure you've tried all this but just in case...

Regards,
Annette

[ishbel]

Hi Annette,
Yes, I've tried all that, as you say.
Of the parents only John's mother was still alive at the time of the marriage.
John's father was also John Kelly and Catherine's father was Patrick Mackay.
The witnesses were Peter Richards and Ellen Watson but I cannot find any connection between those names and any Kellys or Mackays.
I've also looked at the Sponsors' names for John and Catherine's children in the Catholic Records and tried to find some family connection and although a Peter Kelly and a John Mackie do appear as Sponsors for 2 of the children I can't get any further back for them.
To add to the problem, John and Catherine had 11 children, of whom, tragically, only 2 survived-my grandfather William Kelly and his brother Peter.
I find it really odd that John should have married his sister's child. That seems a very close relationship.

Thanks for your suggestions, Annette.

Ishbel

[AndrewP]

Hi Ishbel,

The online IGI names 10 children to this couple. The one without a first name in 1864 possibly died before being given a name. You may well find a matching death for a similar date. I am guessing that the eleventh child was born after 1874, where the IGI birth index stops.

John Kelly
birth: 6 May 1859 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mc Kay

Patrick Kelly
birth: 28 December 1860 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mc Kay

Mary Kelly
birth: 28 October 1862 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mc Kay

Kelly
birth: 3 March 1864 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mc Kay

Bernard Kelly
birth: 1 February 1865 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mc Kay

Peter Kelly
birth: 1 January 1867 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mackay

James Kelly
birth: 1 May 1869 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mackay

Edward Kelly
birth: 6 March 1871 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mackay

Thomas Kelly
birth: 22 October 1872 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mckay

William Kelly
birth: 27 November 1874 DUNDEE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
parents:John Kelly, Catherine Mckay

Did Patrick survive his childhood? It is unusual to find both a Patrick and a Peter in the same generation of a family, as they are the Irish and Anglicised versions of the same name.

All the best,

AndrewP