Deciphering Help Please!.....

Birth, Marriage, Death

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AnnieMack
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Location: Auchterarder

Deciphering Help Please!.....

Post by AnnieMack » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:30 pm

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-424

I've uploaded a birth certificate for Christina Innes which shows her parents weren't married despite her being child 4 or 5. I need help deciphering what is written about her father in the box for signature. Mum Jessie Wilson signs, fathers mark is shown then it says 'Father & ?..looks like occupier? Then there is what seems to be the registrars signature as a witness.

Doesn't make any sense to me :oops:

Annie
Searching: Pow - Stirlingshire, Pender - Paisley, Gray - Alva, Paisley, Elderslie, Canning - Stirling, Morrison, Innes and Wilson - Glasgow to name a few!

www.dundeereptheatre.co.uk home to Scotland's only full time ensemble

AndrewP
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Location: Edinburgh

Post by AndrewP » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:38 pm

Hi Annie,

Here is my interpretation of the certificate.
  • Christina Innes (Illegitimate)
    1877 December Second 5h 0m P.M.
    5 Gourlay Place, Garngadhill, Glasgow
    F (female)
    Thomas Innes, General labourer
    Jessie Wilson, domestic servant
    Jessie Wilson, mother
    Thomas Innes, his X mark, father and occupier
    Peter Ferguson, Registrar, Witness
    1877 December 19th at Glasgow
    Peter Ferguson, Registrar
The registrar was witnessing the X-mark made by the father, as he was unable to sign his name.

Occupier - was that an old fashioned term for "living with her"?

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

AnnieMack
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Location: Auchterarder

Post by AnnieMack » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:40 pm

Thanks for that Andrew, never thought about the possibility of it meaning living together!

Brings a whole new meaning to being a bidey in ha ha!

Annie :lol:
Searching: Pow - Stirlingshire, Pender - Paisley, Gray - Alva, Paisley, Elderslie, Canning - Stirling, Morrison, Innes and Wilson - Glasgow to name a few!

www.dundeereptheatre.co.uk home to Scotland's only full time ensemble

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:07 pm

AndrewP wrote:....snipped.............Occupier - was that an old fashioned term for "living with her"?

All the best,

Andrew Paterson
Note that Jessie Wilson is described as "Domestic Servant".

All that "occupier" can be taken to mean is that he was resident at 5 Gourlay Place where Jessie was a servant, and where the birth took place.

Whether or not that means that they were an "item", or that wee Christina was the result of bit of casual houghmagandy can only be speculation without other evidence, but being child number 4 or 5 is fairly strong evidence to the effect of this being something more permanent !!

The registrar was not allowed to draw deductions or be judgmental , - he had to record the "facts" as they were presented to him.

And it's incorrect to say that they weren't married!. They may have been married by declaration, but never formalised that through the Sheriff Court procedure and then an entry in the marriage register; or, given the other kids, if they represented themselves to the world as man and wife, then they were married by habit and repute !!

And they certainly represented themselves as man and wife in 1881.........

Dwelling: 39 Rosemount Street
Census Place: Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203639 GRO Ref Volume 644-3 EnumDist 51 Page 1
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Thos. INNES M 40 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Iron Labourer
Jessie INNES M 38 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Wife
David INNES 14 M Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Message Boy
Jessie INNES 12 F Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daughter
Occ: Scholar
Thos. INNES 10 M Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Jane INNES 7 F Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daug
Occ: Scholar
Christine INNES 3 F Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daughter
Elizabeth INNES 1 F Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daughter

It wasn't until 1891, when Thomas was 57 and Jessie 47, that they underwent a church marriage that was automatically recorded in the statutory register of marriages :!: This was 7 years after the birth of the youngest child as shown in the 1891 census! By this time, because of the period that had elapsed, the Sheriff Court route wasn't open to validate a marriage by declaration, - they'd have had to go to the Court of Session, - so they maybe just took the much simpler and less expensive route of a church marriage.

Note that, as long as they were free to marry when the various kids were born, and the marriage register entry shows them as bachelor and spinster, then this 1891 marriage automatically legitimated all the kids, - Scots Law being differing from English law in this respect, where once a b*****d meant always a b*****d ........

David

Kathy
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Post by Kathy » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:02 pm

David,

I found your reply very interesting, obviously I have a quite a lot to learn, with respect to what is/what is not a marriage.

Could you expand just a little more on Declaration please, and could Declaration be used to end a marriage?

Kathy
McNeil, McNeill, Craig, Orr, Mitchell, McArthur, McMillan, McGregor, Gray, Dixon, Graham, RFW, Port Glasgow, Greenock & Paisley.
Thornton, Lynch, Flood, Sexton, County Cavan Ireland.
Appleby, Cardiff, Wales,Cooke, Holder, Gloucestershire, England

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:18 pm

Kathy wrote:David,

I found your reply very interesting, obviously I have a quite a lot to learn, with respect to what is/what is not a marriage.

Could you expand just a little more on Declaration please, and could Declaration be used to end a marriage?

Kathy
"Declaration" was one of the forms of "irregular" marriage that existed in Scotland up until the early 20th century, - only by habit and repute survives.

Have a search on this site for "Irregular AND marriage" (the "AND" must be upper case) and you'll find fuller details. If I have the time I'll do so myself, and place an entry in the FAQ forum....... (later - done !! - See http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3726)

And no!, divorce by declaration was not an option :roll:

David

AnneM
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Post by AnneM » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:59 pm

Weep everyone for the demise of marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute. The Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006 has abolished the concept for cohabitation beginning after the commencement of this Act which is April this year. This means that where the cohabitation with habit and repute began before April 2006 there can still be a declarator but that it is no longer possible to begin to constitute a marriage in this way.

I have to say that my rational self says that it was about time that happened but my irrational self is sorry to see an old Scots concept go.

Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters

Kris
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:36 am
Location: Canada

Jessie Wilson/Thomas Innes

Post by Kris » Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:55 am

Hello, this is my first post. For several days I've been poking around on this site - found a 3rd cousin in Scotland - I'm in Canada. WOW! I feel like it is a gift. So many many thanks to you all for such willingness to contribute. I've only known that Jessie and Thomas were the parents of my g grandmother Jennie (Jane) Innes for a few weeks and don't know where to start with the questions. I can read from the other posts how they were represented in the 1881 census. Can anyone find how the family represented themselves in the 1891 census. I know that at least Jane and Christena were in Canada, arriving 1885/86 and serching ship lists currently. They came as 12 and 9 year olds. This seems strange to me as they were not orphans so knowing a little about the "times" in Glasgow would help. I'd also like to know if any additional children were born after the 1881 census. Any info would be much appreciated.
Sincerely, Kris

AnnieMack
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:59 pm
Location: Auchterarder

My Cousin

Post by AnnieMack » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:09 am

Hello everybody - please meet my wee cousin by 15 days (see above) :D

Ironically we lived within about 3 hours from each other in the late 1960's and didn't even know. Having fun catching up now though.

All this through my original posting in this thread on TalkingScot! =D>

Annie xx

PS Kris I think I have that info somewhere in my mountain of paper. Will have a look this evening at home.
Searching: Pow - Stirlingshire, Pender - Paisley, Gray - Alva, Paisley, Elderslie, Canning - Stirling, Morrison, Innes and Wilson - Glasgow to name a few!

www.dundeereptheatre.co.uk home to Scotland's only full time ensemble

Jean Jeanie
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Post by Jean Jeanie » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:32 pm

Hi Annie and Kris

Well, you two have a lot of catching up to do, don't you?

Annie, I'm sure to can show Kris the ropes, so to speak.

Hope you can both extend your family lines further.

Jean