Brickwall-Help appreciated!!!

David Lang · Post by **David Lang** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:31 pm

I have a major league Brickwall with my great great Grandmother Mary Ann Neilson or Nelson.

She was born around 1855 and married Robert Denovan 17/12/1975 in Bannockburn, Stirlingshire.

This were the problems start to occur on the marriage certificate her parents are stated as Alexander Neilson (Innkeeper) Deceased and Margaret Neilson ms Galloway Deceased , Mary Ann was living in Torbrex which i gather is part of Stirling?

Mary Died in 7/2/1928 in Partick , Glasgow father is the same but the mother is listed as Jean Dougall (Deceased).

I have tried to find Mary Ann on the 1861, 1871 Census to no avail to see who she might be living with and if the parents are alive.I also cannot seem to find the parents marriage or Mary Anns Birth record.

Any help appreciated as this has benn driving me nuts for about 3 years!!!

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:33 pm

Hi David

We have all come up against the relative who refuses to be found and you have several reasons why she is possibly eluding you.

First your info on parents names from the death cert. I would believe a marriage certificate details before any parent info on a death certificate!
A son or daughter would be expected to know their parents names but would be less likely to know the correct names of their grandparents. In general the further away the relationship of the person reporting a death the less trustworthy the information given.

We spent 2 years looking for a Mary Ann on census returns and only once was her name given in full. Enumerators were not supposed to include middle names and some obviously felt that Ann fell into that category.

Denovan may be transcribed as Donovan/Denoven/Denovin/Donnovan/Dennovan/Dennovin to name only a few possibilities. Search using the * wildcard which will stand for one or more missing letters.
Some women were entered on a census, especially the early ones, under their maiden names.
Ages can be wildly inaccurate too. Birthdays were an irrlevance when you were struggling to survive day-by-day and if you were barely numerate it was hard to keep track.
If you have her children's names use these for your search as the ages are more likely to be correctly entered.
Her parents surname Neilson suffers the same complications of varying transcriptions Nelson/Neilson/Neilston/Nielson/Neilsen.

When you do find her, as you will, don't blame the enumerator. They did, and still do, a fine job especially when you consider that they had to accept the information given and not make estimates of ages etc.

Russell

karenmcc · Post by **karenmcc** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:39 am

Hi David,

My gggrandmothers name was Marion, but in some records is spelt as Mary Ann.

Karen

David Lang · Post by **David Lang** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:52 pm

I have Mary Ann from 1875 onwards under her married name i think looking at her Childrens Naming pattern that Margaret might be the one i am looking for

Children were

William after paternal gfather
Alexander after maternal gfather
Margaret poss maternal gmother
Henry after paternal uncle
Robert after father
Elizabeth after paternal gmother
John
Thomas
Isaac Newton (I kid you not)
Edward John Upfield

I will try looking under a variety of surnames in the 1861 census

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:52 pm

Hello David

Just so you know I'm working on this one.....but it may just be that it's going to be the impossible to solve one. I have one question for you...did you know that Mary Ann had an illegitimate baby named Robert Denovan Neilson in Feb of 1875? I have to assume that this is the little fellow called William on the 1881 census???? Most confusing this lot!!! So far I'm working on 3 or 4 theories and non of them is convincing enough to put into print. Will keep chipping away though

Best wishes
Jean

David Lang · Post by **David Lang** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:28 pm

Hi Jean

Did not know of that one , by my calculation William was born around 1873 but can find no record of his birth , have his marriage and subsequent death.

It doesnt surprise me that ther eis illegitmacy in that line of the family Robert Denovan , Mary's Husband is Illegitimate Himself being born in 1852 and his parents marriage not being til 1855. His birth isnt registered i got it from his police record.

The denovan's are all from Bannockburn and can trace most of them , the Neilson are a complete mystery!!!!!

Regards,
David

Post by **Pandabean** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:45 pm

In general the further away the relationship of the person reporting a death the less trustworthy the information given.

Not necessarily. I have a case where a Brother gave the fathers name as John when in fact it should have been George. I was told that it may be a case that the person has just seen the body and is in shock and got confused especially since it was not a death by natural causes. On the RCE it is definately changed to George and again on the marriage cert it is also George.

So it just goes to show that even closer people may make a mistake on the death certificate.

Post by **emanday** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:55 pm

I've got a few of those as well.

A daughter who could not get her father's first name right on at least two events, one her 2nd marriage and then her mother's DC where she was the informant, and a son who could not give his father's parents' names at all for his father's DC!

I've only ever registered one close family death and found it very difficult to bring to mind such basic facts. In truth, were it not for the joint effort with those who accompanied me, I'd probably have got something wrong.

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:13 pm

OK…..I need more brainpower on this one so everyone put on your thinking caps

. I’ve come only so far only to be met with still more obstacles and I’m not seeing my way clear. Here is where I’ve got to……..bear with me as the story is long and a bit twisted……

First let’s state the known. Mary Ann Neilson married Robert Denovan on 17 Dec 1875. Her age is given as 22. She is a Mill Worker. Interestingly, she signs her name. Married at Bannockburn but her residence is Torbrex. Parents Alexander Neilson innkeeper dec’d and Margaret Galloway dec’d.

I'm going to jump ahead to 1881 just for a moment and clarify that she states her place of birth as Stirling, Stirlingshire. The child born above seems to have transmogrified into a William or there is some body snatching going on...not sure just which right now but not my first focus either....

Now back to the middle of the previous decade. Mary Ann obviously has been around the Stirlingshire area for a couple years maybe as she gives birth to a son 17 Feb 1875 at 66 Spittal St. Stirling. She names him Robert Denovan Neilson. Her ococupation is woolen winder and she does not sign but makes an “x”. Name given as Mary Ann Neilson mother. By my calculations that puts her in the arms of Robert Denovan possibly as early as May 1874 and probably in Stirlingshire since his family hails from there and so must he.

Now for the hunt for Mary Ann Neilson. Thinking she may have been living with some family member or even maybe her parents were not dead in Feb 1875 I searched of course for their deaths. Nothing. So then I searched the 1881 census for who was living at 66 Spittal St at that time and hoped someone with the name of Neilson would appear. Nope. There were 4 or 5 families there in 1881 and a couple of them had had babies around the time Mary Ann was having her’s so just for fun I searched to see if they were living at 66 Spittal St when Mary Ann might have been living there. One couple did have a child born there the year after but no one seemed to be there before that time so I abandoned that dead end street for now. Besides none of the ladies had MN’s of Neilson soooooo….We still don’t know who she might have lived with or visited to have her baby.

Note: The 1871 Census might be interesting to scoll through to see who was living at 66 Spittal Street at that time but I don’t have access to the microfilms without a lot of bother. This is possible avenue to consider checking.

I can tell you though that it surely does not appear theat Mary Ann herself is in Stirlingshire for the 1871 census. I’ve tried ‘em all. I’ve tried to make her be the young lady with the mother named Janet and the sister born in Australia and the other two little ones born back in Scotland. Mom married to the Thomas Neilson whose occupation given as “gold digger” but not home much……I’ve also tried to make her be the girl with the father named Alexander and the mother named Margaret and the brother William who marries and lives in Perth and the older sister Margaret….but this father is a shoemaker….and before that he was a Chelsea pensioner. Even though he lived in Stirling I think they were still living after Mary Ann would have had them dead and not only that their Mary was already 1 year old in 1851 and really honestly…how do you get innkeeper from shoemaker??

Ok so at that point I had to take a break for a few days and let the dust settle. No Mary on any census…no parents….every darn lead has hit something solid. I should add that I’ve looked around at Galloway and Neilson and found that the surnames fit nicely in the Stirlingshire area. It really does make sense that the names could be correct. I’m not so sure about the Jane Dougall part and because that came into play after Mary Ann was dead I’m not so intent on chasing it right now.

So……after a pause let’s look at it again. Widen the viewfinder. If Mary Ann isn’t in Stirlingshire in 1871 or 1861 and probably not even born yet in 1851 where could she be? With a wide open wildcard approach of N*s*n and a narrow age window I went shopping for her country wide.

A marginally possible candidate came into focus in Bridgeton 1871. She’s indexed under Mary NILSON….is age 18…unmarried….boarder….wool winder……’cept she states born Glasgow. Not to be put off with that I boldly marched back into Bridgeton in 1861 looking for an 8 year old…..and found what can only be described as the MOST LIKELY PERSON YET to be your Mary Ann. Indexed as Mary Ann NEILSTON. Age 8…boarder…..b. STIRLING, STIRLINGSHIRE!!! Wowee…..I am getting a good feeling about this one! But the problem now is who she is boarding with. No apparent connection to the head of the household but also in the household are 2 other boarders. One a young lady named Margaret Lockhert age 22, unmarried b. Stirlingshire, St. Ninians, and the other a baby of either 2 months or 22 months (eyes are blurring at this point) whose birth is stated as Glasgow but I’m not certain I’ve found it and if I did then I’m still not certain if this Margaret Lock* person is his mother or not. He’s listed as what looks like McCarter…the only birth I’ve found is listed as John McCAFFER Very sticky wicket we’re at innit?

So now at this point I should have been in bed 3 hours ago nursing my cold but pushed on to travel back to Stirlingshire before the sun comes up in 1851 to see who are the field of men named Alexander N*s*n who could have fathered wee Mary Ann in about 1852-3. So it’s at this point that we’re brought back to stare accusingly at the lineup that includes the poor aging Chelsea pensioner aka shoemaker but then to also consider a couple of young lads. One stated as age 18 and living on a farm…..the other age 16 and a woolen hand loom weaver. Hmmmm….going on occupation here I chose number 3 and plod onward. His father is David and he’s a wool dyer….the whole family seems to know the wool weaving trade. His mother is named Mary. I’m not compelled to choose him over any of the others other than his trade which Mary Ann might have followed. So back to the lineup and take on the farmer’s son. This son named Alexander…father named Alexander. Mother’s name Jane. They’re in Balfron and he was born there. A search for his mom’s DC gives just another one of those maddening possible clues…..her MN is Lockhart. I’ve looked for a MC for this son Alexander and nothing but neither did I find a DC for him….and neither did I find a Margaret Galloway….yet.

So tell me….where are we at? Where can we go from here? I’m out of clues at the moment and with a nasty head cold can’t seem to get through this one. Any suggestions?? Any lightbulbs snapping ?? Please??

Best wishes
Jean

Post by **emanday** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:13 pm

Gosh Jean, you have been busy, and you with a cold too!

Had to print off your post so that I could read it through.

In the meantime - Have yourself a nice hot toddy and lots of self-pampering