71 Duke Street, Glasgow - hospital?

[Jockbird]

Hello!

Am hoping one of you clever souls might be able to help me....please?

This is, possibly, the birth certificate of my Gx2 grandfather, James McNeil. I say possibly as it has the wrong surname for the mother, should be McKinnon not McKenna, but it's the correct age as per 1871 census and correct father and mother's first name, as per his marriage & death cert.

What I need to know is:-

Was 71 Duke Street a hospital or private residence back then? If it was a hospital birth, should it not give a UR address?

and

Does that say 'nurse' for the informant?

I've googled until my eyes went buggy for Duke Street Hospital but all I've found is after 1904. I'm guessing it was one as I think it says 'nurse' for the occupation but that's a dodgy old N.

Also, is or was Dale Street in the vicinity? It's just that a Roderick McNeil & Catherine McKinnon lost two children in August 1863 & December 1863 and were living at 40 Dale Street and I'm trying to see if there is a link, certainly the Roderick's occupation ties up to the death cert I have for him. Unfortuantely the next address I've got is 6 Park Place, Govan in 1865.....on Roderick's death cert.

I've uploaded the cert to the gallery and would really appreciate some help.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1021

Many thanks
Donna
x

Gallery URL added - AndrewP

[AndrewP]

Hi Donna,

I would agree with you. I think it does say nurse. As that should be the relationship of the informant to the child, not just the occupation of the informant, to me it implies that Elizabeth Wilson was employed to look after James.

As you say, there is no "Usual Residence" given, so the implication is that 71 Duke Street is the home address.

The nurse seems not to have known the marriage date of the parents with any accuracy - about 1843, Glasgow. Not unusual when the informant is not one of the parents.

All the best,

AndrewP

[nelmit]

Hello!

Am hoping one of you clever souls might be able to help me....please?

This is, possibly, the birth certificate of my Gx2 grandfather, James McNeil. I say possibly as it has the wrong surname for the mother, should be McKinnon not McKenna, but it's the correct age as per 1871 census and correct father and mother's first name, as per his marriage & death cert.

What I need to know is:-

Was 71 Duke Street a hospital or private residence back then? If it was a hospital birth, should it not give a UR address?

and

Does that say 'nurse' for the informant?

I've googled until my eyes went buggy for Duke Street Hospital but all I've found is after 1904. I'm guessing it was one as I think it says 'nurse' for the occupation but that's a dodgy old N.

Also, is or was Dale Street in the vicinity? It's just that a Roderick McNeil & Catherine McKinnon lost two children in August 1863 & December 1863 and were living at 40 Dale Street and I'm trying to see if there is a link, certainly the Roderick's occupation ties up to the death cert I have for him. Unfortuantely the next address I've got is 6 Park Place, Govan in 1865.....on Roderick's death cert.

I've uploaded the cert to the gallery and would really appreciate some help.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1021

Many thanks
Donna
x

Gallery URL added - AndrewP

Hello Donna,

I've been trying to find out a bit more of 71 Duke Street but didn't find much. Even looking at an old map doesn't help.
It would have been fairly near the junction with High Street and I also think it was the home address.

Dale Street changed to Tradeston Street.
http://www.glasgowguide.co.uk/info-streetschanged1.html

This family is definitely worth a search of The Mitchell poorhouse applications. I will have a look just in case.

Regards,
Annette M

[AndrewP]

Hi Donna,

This may not be the answer you were expecting. According to the 1881 census CDs, 71 Duke Street, Glasgow was "H.M. Prison known as The North Prison".

All the best,

AndrewP

[Jockbird]

Hi Andrew & Annette,

Thank you for your replies.

The address has me somewhat bewildered. Assuming I am talking of the same family (ie James & Michael's parents and my 1864 James) Roderick was at 16 Broomielaw in 1855, they were in Broomielaw in 1861 for the census, in August 1863 they were in Dale Street and in December 1863 and then in April 1864 we get this 71 Duke Street address, April 1865 sees the address as 6 Park Place Govan when Roderick dies and Catherine and James born 1864 are still there for the 1871 census.

I agree Andrew that the 'nurse' being third party I think has given spurious information, certainly with the name and then, according to Catherine's age in the 1871 census an 1843 marriage would only have made Catherine 13 at that time. With the help of a friend I've found out that the Roderick & Catherine McKinnon who have James & Michael (1860 & 1863) married in 1855 and Roderick has the same occupation as the one stated on the death certificate for the 1871 Catherine my cousin & I believe to be ours.

Annette, I'd really appreciate it if you could have a wee peek at the Poor Records. Catherine, assuming it's the same one, has gone by the nate Kitty, Kate & Catherine and her birth is anywhere between 1823 and 1831....but she is consistent in saying she was born in Barra!

Haven't found Catherine's death so goodness only knows what became of her after 1871, although her son states she is still alive at the time of his marriage in Forres in 1887, James being in the North East for the 1881 census as a servant. Perhaps she was in a Poorhouse, I've certainly spent a fair whack of late trying to find her......she's not there under any obvious Catherine McNeil and or McKinnon wildcards!

Thanks again to you both
Donna
x

[nelmit]

Hi Donna,

This may not be the answer you were expecting. According to the 1881 census CDs, 71 Duke Street, Glasgow was "H.M. Prison known as The North Prison".

All the best,

AndrewP

Andrew,

Excellent find.

I went all the way along Duke St and it stopped at 61. Obviously the prison would have submitted their census return separately.

I'd be really interested as to how you found it was 71 Duke Street.

Kind regards,
Annette M

[Jockbird]

Thank you Andrew, I was just reading a message from Jack and he'd found that one too......oh dear! (ticks off another Chav on the list)

As I said to Jack, it may have been the grief of losing two weans that has led her to do something rash!

She was out by 1865 as she signed her husband's death cert in the April that year......would explain the change of address!

Any idea whether they keep prison records and if so where?

Donna
x

[AndrewP]

... According to the 1881 census CDs, 71 Duke Street, Glasgow was "H.M. Prison known as The North Prison".

... I'd be really interested as to how you found it was 71 Duke Street.

After a few tries of the "advanced search" of the appropriate CD with no useful results, I searched for 71 Duke Lanark. That allowed for Duke Street, Duke St etc and the county Lanark(shire).

One of the results was:
Institution: "H M Prison Known As The North Prison" 71 Duke S
Census Place: Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203647 GRO Ref Volume 644-5 EnumDist 68 Page 2
On a further advanced search, for 644-5 68 Prison, many pages came back, but no more showing 71 Duke Street.

A Google search produces this result - an unanswered question regarding the records for this prison. This one also gives the prison address as 71 Duke Street.

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SC ... 1044105276

All the best,

AndrewP

[Jockbird]

Do you ever get the feeling you should stop digging?

This is the 3rd unlawful activity (well she wouldn't be in there for anything lawful!) I've unearthed between my Gx2 grandmother & father's families in the last 48 hours!!!

No doubt it's the right place here's the entry for the James we believe to be ours birth cert:

4 1864 MCNEIL JAMES M HIGH CHURCH GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/02 0658 VIEW (PAID) ORDER

Do you think the Mitchell would hold such records? Whatever she was in there for it was after August 1863 (if my Catherine's are one in the same)as she registered her son Michael's death and was able to register husband Roderick's death in April 1865.

Think I'd better steer clear of Pandabean's thread on law-abiding ancestors!

Donna
x

[momat]

I can't help but note that the Birth Certificate states the Burgh as HIGH CHURCH. Isn't that part of PAISLEY ?
There is a DUKE STREET in Paisley just of the Nelston Road.
Could it be this.

Cheers.