Missing great grannie??.....

Birth, Marriage, Death

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Maud Jarvis
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:03 pm
Location: Essex England

Missing great grannie??.....

Post by Maud Jarvis » Mon May 30, 2005 11:52 am

Any suggestions forthcoming to help break down a brick wall (just one of several!!)

I`ve gone crosseyed, loking for death of a great grandmother, until the 1881 census, she had been in Derby, where she was born & married.
However, the 1881 census for Perth, Scotland, she appears with husband & daughter Mabel(my grandmother) the other children were all scattered, one daughter with her Scottish grandmother in Edinburgh, the eldest son (from 1st marriage, in lodgings, also in Edinburgh, another son,cannot find him, did he die? if so where? no trace) another son believed to have been in the Fechney Industrial School, have tried finding the records, but unfortunately they no longer exist for that period.
shortly after 1881 grandmother shown on the census, was most likely with her sister in Edinburgh, as she was despatched from there (from Mrs Blaikies emigration home)to Canada arranged by grandmother`s sister, in 1889.

Now, it seemed to me that gt grandmother must have died,and that could have been the reason for daughter Mabel being shipped off to Canada
BUT, after a wait of over a year, I received from the lovely people of Barnardos, a report about my grandmother (who had married in Canada and left there in 1900 to go to Scotland)
Mabel told the people in the children`s home where she had been sent to in Canada, that she was not after an orphan, but that her FATHER was alive & living in Birmingham, however she said her GRANDMOTHER was dead, but the Edinburgh grandmother did not die until some years later, so did dhe refer to the other granmother still in Derby? (have not solved that one yet) there was no mention of what had happened to her MOTHER
(perhaps she had been abducted by aliens!!)

Mabel`s father had written to her, shortly after this "confession" and some extracts were quoted on the report, father had said "..no wife and no job..and complans about the selfishness of Mabel`s sister Effie, then goes on to say "..but never mind my dear, we can manage without her.."
again no mention of death of his wife.

Now comes another puzzling thing, I traced the father (George Nelson Grant) on the 1891 1901 census, now in Glasgow, but, he now has a wife named ANNIE!! have not found any record of that marriage, was he therefore "living in sin" he died in 1919 in Leicester, again wife ANNIE being mentioned, therehad been an inquest because he had dropped dead outside his home.
So, I assumed that gr grandmother must have died later than the census time, so searched from 1881 up to 1891 for her death, both in Sctland & England, nothing turned up.

So, now I am thinking,did they separate and each go their own way, he with Annie and wife with ? she also may have "lived in sin" with someone, but without a surname how can I possibly find her???

Gt grandmothers name was MARY HANNAH GRANT (nee Copeland) born in Derby 1850, she married George Nelson in 1868 in Derby, he was then a widower with a baby son, his first wife Mary Plews Street, having died from Consumption in 1866 :?

So, any suggestions how I can attempt to find Mary Hannah
no wonder I`m going cross eyed, I`ve uncovered so many skeletons in the family cupboard, on both Paternal & Maternal sides, the ancestors must be spinning in their graves by now, that the information they tried so hard to conceal is being opened up No wonder I was never told anything about the family and any questions asked were never answered!!
Seeking any descendents from Ezekiel McCulloch, Port Glasgow, also Neil Barr (Greenock)

nelmit
Posts: 4001
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:49 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Missing great grannie??

Post by nelmit » Mon May 30, 2005 1:51 pm

Maud Jarvis wrote:Any suggestions forthcoming to help break down a brick wall (just one of several!!)

I`ve gone crosseyed, loking for death of a great grandmother, until the 1881 census, she had been in Derby, where she was born & married.
However, the 1881 census for Perth, Scotland, she appears with husband & daughter Mabel(my grandmother) the other children were all scattered, one daughter with her Scottish grandmother in Edinburgh, the eldest son (from 1st marriage, in lodgings, also in Edinburgh, another son,cannot find him, did he die? if so where? no trace) another son believed to have been in the Fechney Industrial School, have tried finding the records, but unfortunately they no longer exist for that period.
shortly after 1881 grandmother shown on the census, was most likely with her sister in Edinburgh, as she was despatched from there (from Mrs Blaikies emigration home)to Canada arranged by grandmother`s sister, in 1889.

Now, it seemed to me that gt grandmother must have died,and that could have been the reason for daughter Mabel being shipped off to Canada
BUT, after a wait of over a year, I received from the lovely people of Barnardos, a report about my grandmother (who had married in Canada and left there in 1900 to go to Scotland)
Mabel told the people in the children`s home where she had been sent to in Canada, that she was not after an orphan, but that her FATHER was alive & living in Birmingham, however she said her GRANDMOTHER was dead, but the Edinburgh grandmother did not die until some years later, so did dhe refer to the other granmother still in Derby? (have not solved that one yet) there was no mention of what had happened to her MOTHER
(perhaps she had been abducted by aliens!!)

Mabel`s father had written to her, shortly after this "confession" and some extracts were quoted on the report, father had said "..no wife and no job..and complans about the selfishness of Mabel`s sister Effie, then goes on to say "..but never mind my dear, we can manage without her.."
again no mention of death of his wife.

Now comes another puzzling thing, I traced the father (George Nelson Grant) on the 1891 1901 census, now in Glasgow, but, he now has a wife named ANNIE!! have not found any record of that marriage, was he therefore "living in sin" he died in 1919 in Leicester, again wife ANNIE being mentioned, therehad been an inquest because he had dropped dead outside his home.
So, I assumed that gr grandmother must have died later than the census time, so searched from 1881 up to 1891 for her death, both in Sctland & England, nothing turned up.

So, now I am thinking,did they separate and each go their own way, he with Annie and wife with ? she also may have "lived in sin" with someone, but without a surname how can I possibly find her???

Gt grandmothers name was MARY HANNAH GRANT (nee Copeland) born in Derby 1850, she married George Nelson in 1868 in Derby, he was then a widower with a baby son, his first wife Mary Plews Street, having died from Consumption in 1866 :?

So, any suggestions how I can attempt to find Mary Hannah
no wonder I`m going cross eyed, I`ve uncovered so many skeletons in the family cupboard, on both Paternal & Maternal sides, the ancestors must be spinning in their graves by now, that the information they tried so hard to conceal is being opened up No wonder I was never told anything about the family and any questions asked were never answered!!
Hello,

I may be suggesting the obvious here, as I am sure Mabel's mother must have died before this, but Effie appears to have married in 1892.
Have you looked at that entry to see if Mary Hannah is definitely recorded as deceased?

Annette M

sporran
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:40 pm
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK

Re: great grannie

Post by sporran » Mon May 30, 2005 3:32 pm

Hello Maud,


you may have been away a while but you have returned with a vengeance. We may have to suggest a poll to see if you should be allowed to post these stinkers!

Seriously, I have doubts about the 1891 and 1901 census entries, so could you give the details for George Nelson Grant: name, age, occupation, birthplace. Did his death certificate give his full name, and I assume that putative wife Annie was the informant?


Regards,

John

Maud Jarvis
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:03 pm
Location: Essex England

Missing Gt Grannie

Post by Maud Jarvis » Tue May 31, 2005 10:16 am

John,
Thanks for your reply in response to my private message, sorry, I thought having it on the board may have been too long?

Anyway,re the 1891/1901 census, sorry if I had not said that these were for London, I thought I had.
I think my puir wee brain is starting to crack up!!

Yes, I could not find him on the Scottish census, except for that once in 1881, when the family were in Perth, even yet I still harbour doubts, but it just has to be them, they do not appear anywhere else.

The "wife" Annie, stated her b/place was in Bermondsey, East London, so obviously she could not have been Mary Hannah, I wondered at first, if the name Annie was in mistake for Hannah, but the b/place ruled that out, Mary Hannah was born in Derby.

However, at this moment I cannot lay my hand on the census copies, will have to search through my mountains of paperwork, I usually have census etc all in order, but recently have been withdrawing various documents for entering into data information, I have become a member of the Scottishfamilytreeresearchers, site, and am in the midst of sending in the data of the family, this is quite a big undertaking as I have masses of BMDs, now things are in a wee bit of a muddle, although I do have them (or try to!!) in separate folders, I will get back to normal eventually (I hope)
So I will go now and have a good look through everything so that I can find the ones in question.
My home help comes in soon, so I will be unable to sit and type for a while, so will make use of the time, having a sort through the papers whilst she is here.

Perhaps I might find the bits of my missing brain while doing so!!
Son has just popped out to buy the daily paper & will make me my morning cuppa when he gets back, so I`ll shut up now, and have a rest while I can.
Maud
Seeking any descendents from Ezekiel McCulloch, Port Glasgow, also Neil Barr (Greenock)

Maud Jarvis
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:03 pm
Location: Essex England

Missing Grannie/ Sporran

Post by Maud Jarvis » Tue May 31, 2005 5:53 pm

Hi Sporran
Sorry for sending the information a way you did not want, however, here it is now, sorry it will be rather long.
It takes a while to find George Nelson Grant, on the census his name has never been inserted consistently, as you will see from the following.

1871 when he was still in Derby
at 14 London Street, Litchurch
GEORGE NELSON GRANT 29 occup.Sorter Travelling P.O.
b/place Scotland
Mary Hannah wife 21 " Derby
Edward P. son 5 " "
Effie dau 2 " "
George N. son 6 mths " "

1881 was doubtful because of ages, but only this one found in Scotland
so assumed this could perhaps be him, but transcribed incorrect
10 Carpenter Street, Perth GRO Ref 387 Page 12 from LDS disc
NELSON GRANT 39 occup.Pensioner Army b/place
Edinburgh Scotland
Mary wife 28 Derby
Mabel dau 5 "
incorrrect occupation, but could this have been incorrect on being
transcribed, perhaps GPO etc could not be deciphered?
age given for Mabel should have been 6 or 7 (born Aug 1874)
" " Mary wife " " 30/31 " 1850
There was also an entry for the Fechney Industrial School for
George Grant, correct age, this could have been their son, unfortunately
no records are now available, have tried to obtain them.

1891
Now back in England, but without wife Mary Hannah, cannot trace her
entry for page 16 Parish Lambeth, ward Vauxhall
at 1 Paradise Road
G.NELSON GRANT 47 Retired Travelling Sorter GPO /Scotland
Annie wife 36 Gen Domestic Servant Bermondsey

1901
now in Islington

GEORGE N.GRANT 57 Retired GPO Servant Edinburgh
b/p
Annie Wife 53 Bermondsey


As you see, his name has been inserted in a different style
each entry!

I have searched quite a long time for 1881 and there is no trace for him in
England.
So on trying Scotland only entry was as shown for Perth, and so it was a good bet that it could be him
Names work out correctly also for 1881, except for the occupation, this could have been a mistake, it may have been difficult to read the description, and may have been taken for an army pensioner? other documents list him as a Civil Servant, so he seemed to vary what he answered each time
And as all the other children were in Edinburgh (except for my grandmother) she must have gone there with her sister after 1881, or sometime during 1881?

I have two different addresses for sister Effie whilst grandmother may have been with her, (1) at Hillside Crsecent Edinburgh and then (2)
1 Orwell Place, Derby Rd Edinburgh, then grandmother was finally in Mrs Blaikies emigration house, Lauriston Lane Edinburgh, from where in 1889
she was sent to Canada, apparently this has been arranged by Effie

It appears that a letter was sent to Marchmont Home in Canada, where grandmother had been sent (from there she went into verious domestic servant situations) Effie had written to them , apparently about herself, saying she had a sister and 2 brothers respectable people,...she had worked very hard all her life. she was a ook amd was willing to offer good domestic service in return for a good home.." I only have extracts from the letters referred to, so there is a great deal missing and I have to piece it together.
Referring to the father George Nelson Grant, he is reported to now be in Birmingham. at Charles Street, Holly Place, Merdley Rd.

I don`t know if Effie was accepted to go to Canada. The report does not mention that.
Except to say that in 1890 Mabel (my g.mother) confessed she was NOT an orphan and had a long letter from father giving all the family history (I
wish I had that letter now)!!
he remarked on the selfishness of Effie (?) and said .."never mind my dear, we can live without her.."
In Dec 1890 Mabel had said that sister Effie was anxious to come to Canada.. she also remarked that her grandmother (?) was dead
her grandmother EUPHEMIA GRANT did not die until 1894 so I do not know was she telling a "porkie" or did she refer to the other grandmother in Derby?

Considering I was never told anything about the family (I picked up some remarks here & there eavesdropping as a child, but not enough information to get the whole story)
I have had to work very hard (and spend a fair bit of money, to obtain most of the information I have now. but there is still many parts unfinished that I woud love to know about!

However, if there was some "hanky pankie" with the gt grandfather, perhaps he & his wife Mary Hannah broke up, and went their own ways, I can only speculate on that, the family would certainly want to keep that undercover, it would have been a disgrace in those days I expect
& I doubt if they would have obtained a divorce, that was very very difficult in the last century for ordinary people.

Well I hope the above information will better fill in the picture?

As for Blanche Eileen Mitchell, there lies another mystery for me to solve!
I too have tried the 1901 without any success, also tried for her under Fraser, but name is almost impossible, it is so common in Scotland if she was there.
Every now and then I have another try, just in case I missed something the first time round, if I only knew the name of her mother, it would have been a great help.
I am starting to suspect she may have been illegitimate, and I`m looking for any clues about that.
Seeking any descendents from Ezekiel McCulloch, Port Glasgow, also Neil Barr (Greenock)

Maud Jarvis
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:03 pm
Location: Essex England

Lost Grannie/attn of "Sporran" a ps

Post by Maud Jarvis » Tue May 31, 2005 9:10 pm

Hi,
PS Sorry I had forgotten to mention this point in my previous reply,
When George Nelson Grant died, there had been an inquest, he had dropped dead outside his home.
I obtained a newspaper report of the inquest, and the wife ANNIE was mentioned.

I had begun wondering if the name on the census Annie, had been misheard, whoever heard it, Mary Hannah might have sounded like Annie,
a long shot in my thinking, but then of course it was obvious it could not have been Mary Hannah, she was born in Derby,, whereas Annie was born in Bermondsey, London.

I have searched for a marriage but unable to find it, so they were most likely to have been "living in sin" as would have been said in those days.
I do not know why George Nelson was then living in Leicester where he died,Mary Hannah`s brother also lived there, William Francis Copeland,
it is a right puzzle, no wonder I am going a bit daft in my old age!!

Hope you are not baboozled by this time?
Maud
Seeking any descendents from Ezekiel McCulloch, Port Glasgow, also Neil Barr (Greenock)