Scottish naming pattern? .....

[Marie Svedahl]

I would be very interested in learning the "rules" of the Scottish naming pattern if some kind person would share them?

I know that prior to the 20th century many (most?) European cultures used some form of pattern to perpetuate their family's given names, and also to honour their elders. In some places the pattern was strictly adhered to - even having rules to cover unusual circumstance. Example: In Norway, if the wife died, when the surviving partner remarried, he would name the first female child of the second marriage after his first wife. It worked the same way if the wife remarried.

I know that my Scottish families were repeating family names but I'm not aware of the axiom guiding the choice of those names. So, some questions:

1. Who was the first son named after? the first daughter? etc.
2. How strictly was the pattern followed? did it vary by district? or individual families?

And how much credence do you as a researcher place in the presence - or absence - of family names in deciding if you have a family match?

Thanks in advance for any information you can give.

Marie

[Malcolm]

Hello Marie
The practice of perpetuating the name of a first wife in subsequent births to a second partner was, from my own research also practiced in Scotland. Perhaps it was handed down to us by the Vikings. I have also seen a deceaced wife's name used by the siblings of the bereaved within their own families.
In answer to your first question using information given to me by a former co-respondent, there was a formal naming pattern structured thus;

first son named after father's father
second son named after mother's father
first daughter after mother's mother
second daughter after father's mother...

I can only refer to my own family history in answering your second question and say that the naming pattern was not strictly adhered to particularly as we go farther into the eightenth century. I'm unable to comment on regional variations
Finally, the use or otherwise of any given name however unusual, cannot in itself be used to establish a family connection without further corroberative detail.
Hoping this is of interest
MM

[HeatherH]

Hello Marie,
The nameing pattern in Scotland is as follows:

1st son named for father's father
2nd son for mother's father
3rd son for father

1st daughter named for Mother's Mother
2nd daughter for father's mother
3rd daughter for mother

This is usually how the children are named however there are exceptions to everyrule.If for example the Mother's father was to pass on about the time of the 1st sons birth then the pattern may be broken.Or perhaps if an Uncle or grandparents were to give the family a monetary gift upon their marriage then again they may decide to break with tradition and name a child out of sequence.

This is a pattern that you may well find in your rellies but I think others may tell you that is not a hard and fast rule to follow blindly.

HeatherK

[Marie Svedahl]

Thanks, Malcolm & HeatherK for your input. Thought if I was going to use the pattern to find clues, I better make certain I had the correct pattern!

I realize of course, that the naming pattern can't be classed as a resource. It is more of a warning bell, that if your new found family has or doesn't have the correct mixture of names, maybe you need to do a little more digging to verify what you're trying to prove. Hope that makes sense!

And Malcolm, You could be correct about the Vikings. Seems like they have to take responsibility for a good many things in history. My husband teases me that I had better be careful with my Scottish research, if I dig too deep I may find a Viking!

Thanks again.

Marie

[DavidWW]

Marie

Over and above the problem that some families stuck rigidly to the naming pattern, some used it most of the time, but some didn't, there's another couple of problems for the researcher.

Firstly, given the relatively poor quality of the OPRs, it's often not the case that a researcher can be sure that they have the names of all the children, especially when there are gaps, atho' such gaps can obviously be due to mis-carriages.

Secondly there was a very small pool of given names in use in Scotland, so that little reliance can be placed, say, on the "right" names occurring, but in the wrong order. That written, where there is a sequence of generations where the pattern is used, and there then occurs a generation where a different group of names is used, or an unusual name doesn't occur, I'd put a questionmark against the possible link until other proof is found.

I like your description of "warning bell" !

Another complication which regularly trips up researchers is that, given the high rates of unfant mortality, it's almost an unusual family where there isn't one of more kids who are born and die in between censuses.

Yet another complication, deriving from that small pool of given names, is that it's quite common for 2 of the grandparents/parent to have the same name, or even all three! Some parents would skip the "duplicate", other's didn't. In the situation where a child died in infancy, in some areas the custom was to re-use the name for the next child, in others not to re-use the name !

In approximately 10% of cases, particularly in SW Scotland the paternal/maternal pattern is reversed, -

1st son named for mother's father
2nd son for father's father
3rd son for father

1st daughter named for father's Mother
2nd daughter for mother's mother
3rd daughter for mother

In Norway, what's the full pattern, and is there any pattern after the third son and daughter?

Davie

[mesklin]

Marie

The traditional naming patterns can be very useful in pinning down the likeliest candidate in ancestor searching. The custom of naming the children after the grandparents can be very useful.

Rarely ever mentioned, but, if it happens in your line, stunningly effective middle name can be even more useful. Scottish women often retain their maiden name and have a parent, grandparent or other relative's surname as a middle name.

For example, in my mother's line, we have

Barbara Chapman Smith - my niece
Barbara Chapman Sloan Smith - my sister
Barbara Chapman Bissett Sloan - my mother
Margaret Pearson Gillespie Bissett - my grandmother
James Gillespie - my ggrandfather
Margaret Pearson - my gggrandmother
Robert Chapman Bissett - my grandfather
Barbara Chapman - my ggrandmother

So between the two patterns, my mother's ancestors are pretty much all there.
I applied the same to tracing my wife's ancestors. Not a single common given name at all! But almost every one had a surname for a middle name. Five generations in one evening. Can't say fairer than that.

Dave

[Marie Svedahl]

Thanks to both "Daves" for your very descriptive remarks. Your warnings about circumstances that often effected the use of the pattern have been noted and I will be cautious!

Another complication which regularly trips up researchers is that, given the high rates of unfant mortality, it's almost an unusual family where there isn't one of more kids who are born and die in between censuses

(How DO you guys do that neat quote thing anyway??

Anyway, what I was going to say in response to the above remark, I remember years ago reading about the high rate of infant mortality in Scotland. I'm terrible with recalling numbers, but it seems that it was something like for every 6 or 7 live births, Scottish parents could expect to raise one child to adulthood. The first five or six years of a child's life were the most vulnerable. I expect this high rate of death was more for the period before the use of small pox vaccine.

About the Norwegian naming pattern - fundementally the same as the Scottish -
first son - father's father
second son - mother's father
further sons - parent's grandfathers
first daughter - mother's mother
second daughter - father's mother
further daughter's - parent's grandmothers
However they were very strict about following the pattern, even into the 20th century. My father-in-laws parent's named their seven children right on, even to naming two chn. with same name when the first one died. They did sneak ONE unfamiliar female name in that I have never been able to place - how I would love to solve that riddle!
If the newly weds were living on the wife's family's farm when the first son was born, then he was given the mother's father's name. A case of knowing which side your bread was buttered on.
The Svedal farm in Norway has a 300 year nearly unbroken record of Hans Nilson & Nils Hanson as owners. The one break came at the beginning of the 20th century when the eldest son, Hans came to Canada instead of taking over the farm. A sister & her husband became owners but they have resumed the Nils - then Hans naming pattern. Remains to be seen if the new owner, unmarried as yet, continues with these old names.

Thanks again for the two very interesting responses.

Marie

[DavidWW]

Another complication which regularly trips up researchers is that, given the high rates of unfant mortality, it's almost an unusual family where there isn't one of more kids who are born and die in between censuses

(How DO you guys do that neat quote thing anyway??
Marie

By enclosing the text you want to quote in two pairs of [] brackets, with quote inside the first pair, and quote/ inside the second pair.

To include a name as well, you need to alter the first bit to
quote="Name" inside the [] brackets.

Have a look at your post using the edit button, and you'll see what I've changed !

The system will do it for you if you hit the "quote" button when you want to reply to a post.

Davie

[Sue Erskine]

Hi

I think we should count ourselves lucky that we are looking for Scottish rellies......

In Bali people are known by their birth order names, this is automatically taken at birth; even a stillborn child is so named.

1st born is named Wayan
2nd born: Made
3rd born: Nyoman
4th born: Ketut.

Then the names are repeated, so the first, fifth and ninth child is called Wayan, etc. There is no difference in birth order names for males and females.

In Bali you meet many Wayans

[Marie Svedahl]

I can see I'll have to do some practicing on this - I think my computer is missing some buttons (maybe it's me who is missing the buttons - or marbles)

but now what I want to quote is out of sight

I will be away for a time while I figure this out.......

There is a saying about teaching old dogs new tricks - I'm thinking that may apply here.

Marie