Help!!!

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Wee Ann
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Help!!!

Post by Wee Ann » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:36 am

Some years ago, I was helped to find my great, great grandfather James Richmond, when some kind person on this site suggested he might be an Englishman.
He was, and I traced him to a village in Lancashire.

I found him in the 1841 Scottish census in Inverness-shire, with his first wife Eliza and their two children John and Thomasin (or Thomasina), with my great, great grandmother, Mary McEachen, living in the house as the children's nurse.

I looked for his marriage to Eliza, and found a James Richmond, married to Elizabeth Harrison in Preston, Lancashire in 1839. I thought, "How easy was that?"

Looking further at E.H. I find that there is evidence that she and her James stayed in Lancashire, and had children with quite different names, ( while still retaining the same parents for James).

I am pretty sure that I have James right, and his parent's William Richmond and Sarah Bond from the village of Cockerham in Lancashire, but now have serious doubts as to Eliza being E.H. As this was the only marriage I could find in Lancashire, I am beginning to think that Eliza might have been a Scottish lass, and I am looking way too far south for the marriage.

There is no way I can think of to find out when James came to Scotland. Whether he came as a single man or already married. Both the children were born in Boleskine. The family lived at Knockie House, which seems to have been a 'tied house' to his job as Gamekeeper.

I am sorry this has been so long winded, but I am trying to sort things through in my mind. If anyone has any ideas as to how I could move forward with this, I would be forever thankful.
Roe/Rowe, Kane, Logue, Harkin, Commons, Gillan, Ireland.
McPherson, Richmond, Bowers, Laird, Russell, Cuthbertson, Scotland

SarahND
Site Admin
Posts: 5570
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Re: Help!!!

Post by SarahND » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:02 am

Hello Wee Ann,
I see that in the 1841 census both James and Eliza were born in England and wee John is only 5 months old, born in Ross & Cromarty (Thomasina wasn't born yet). Have you followed John down through the years to see what his mother's maiden surname is? Or did he go to England to marry and die and thus there will be no record of her name…?

For others wanting to refresh their minds on this family, here is a link to the earlier topic:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8634

All the best,
Sarah

P.S. I see now that John's mother WAS Elizabeth Harrison on his birth record. So your question is whether there might be two James Richmonds marrying two Elizabeth Harrisons?

trish1
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:38 am
Location: australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by trish1 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:05 am

"Looking further at E.H. I find that there is evidence that she and her James stayed in Lancashire, and had children with quite different names, ( while still retaining the same parents for James)."
Is this via other family trees or historical records?

The closest I find to the family you may mean is on the 1861 census in England
Lancashire Everton RG9/2719 33/20
104 Netherfield? Road
James Richmond head mar 47 provision dealer Lancashire Lancaster
Elizth do wife 47 - do do
Elizth do dau 7 - do do
Mary do dau 5 - do do
Elizth do sister Un 40 ?? do do
Eliz Til? (large ink blot) un 21 -- do do
Sarah Til? do un 11 -- do do

Using the Lancashire BDM site 1854 marriage (there is a problem with this marriage on Freebdm & in the images on ancestry)
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
RICHMOND * James CRAGG Elizabeth Lancaster, St Mary Preston CE12/5/266
RICHMOND * James TILL Elizabeth Lancaster, St Mary Preston CE12/5/266
The Elizabeth in this case is widow Elizabeth Till - maiden surname Cragg - and the Til children are probably from her first marriage. 1839 Elizabeth Cragg married Daniel Till.
Both the Till and Richmond families can be found on other census records.

Apologies if the family you are checking is completely different.

Trish

Currie
Posts: 3794
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by Currie » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:37 am

Hello there.

Does this help, or throw a spanner in the works?

Preston Chronicle, Saturday, February 16, 1839
MARRIAGES.
On Monday last, at the Catholic Chapel, Fernyhalgh, by the Rev. R. Gillow, Mr. James Richmond, farmer, of Haighton Hall, to Miss Elizabeth Harrison, of Broughton.

Alan

Wee Ann
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by Wee Ann » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:54 am

Thank you all so much for your replies!
It feels good to be on the move again!
The marriage could quite easily be the one at the Catholic Chapel at Fernyhalgh - all it gives in the BMD is 1st Qtr 1839. I have made a note of the place and date.
It looks like I could be right about Eliza, and that feels good too.
I am looking into everything that has been suggested.
Thank you all again
Will keep you posted
Best regards
Ann
Roe/Rowe, Kane, Logue, Harkin, Commons, Gillan, Ireland.
McPherson, Richmond, Bowers, Laird, Russell, Cuthbertson, Scotland

SarahND
Site Admin
Posts: 5570
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Re: Help!!!

Post by SarahND » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:00 am

Ahah! Nice spanner, Alan!
James and Elizabeth don't appear to be in England in 1841, which makes them likely suspects for our friends up in Scotland. At Haighton Hall we have this interesting household in 1841:

James Richmond, 83, Farmer, born in county
Thomasin Richmond, 65
Thomas Richmond, 20
Liddy Richmond, 25
Margret Richmond, 7 months
John Sellars, 15

I like this couple for the parents of our James-- it makes sense now that he named his daughter Thomasin.

On Family Search there is a marriage in 1802 of James Richmond and Thomasan Hool in Broughton Near Preston, Lancs

Cheers,
Sarah

SarahND
Site Admin
Posts: 5570
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Re: Help!!!

Post by SarahND » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:24 am

Back again.
There are records on Family Search from the Catholic Chapel, Fernyhalgh, Batch number P017601. Everyone's names are interestingly Latinized… The children's births do not include a James, although there is an empty slot where his birth could be.

The parents are Jacobo Richmond and Thomasina Hool or Hull

Children:
Robertus 1803
Georgius 1804
Joannes 1806
Anna 1808
Margtam 1811
Thomas 1817

All the best,
Sarah

Currie
Posts: 3794
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by Currie » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:34 am

Back again,

Does this fellow fit the picture? I’ll post it in full even though it may horrify the EPS (Eagle Protection Society)

Preston Chronicle, Saturday, November 14, 1840
EAGLES.—This prince of birds is now rarely to be seen in the Highlands, for the march of improvment is driving them, like the Red Indians of America, to the very remotest mountain solitudes. A pair have long built—about fifty years it is said—near the entrance of the pass of Inverfarigaig, on the borders of Loch Ness; and eagles are still seen in the western parts of Inverness-shire. In Sutherland we heard of one—a majestic looking bird—that had been caught in a large trap, which it had strength to carry to a considerable distance till both fell into a lake. A correspondent informs us, that Mr. James Richmond, gamekeeper to Mr. Gladstone, of Liverpool, has, from September in 1839, to June of this year, trapped six eagles on a high hill on the farm of Auchenesheen, in Ross-shire. One of the eagles measured from tip to tip of the wings eight feet two inches, and the span of his claws was six and a half inches. This noble bird displayed "the terrors of his beak, and the lightning of his eye" from the top of a cairn or monument erected by the gentlemen pursuing the trigonometrical survey. The same gamekeeper has also taken a number of wild-cats; one measuring in length three feet ten inches, and another three feet eight inches,—Inverness Courier.

All the best,
Alan

SarahND
Site Admin
Posts: 5570
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Re: Help!!!

Post by SarahND » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:42 am

:shock: That sounds like our man. Too bad about the eagles...

Back in England, James and Thomasin are still living in 1851, although James is 94 years old (good genes!).
Their son John is living with them, he is a widower with a 12 year old daughter Mary. The interesting thing is that John is a Game Keeper! I'm liking this family more and more...

Shouldn't there be a death notice in the paper for this extremely elderly man, Alan?

Cheers,
Sarah

Later: From fiddling around with the search funcion on SP it looks like Mary died in Dennistoun, Glasgow City in 1885 and James in 1886. I guess they had to leave their house in Boleskine when he retired. Do you have his death certificate?

Wee Ann
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Help!!!

Post by Wee Ann » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:34 am

WOW!!!

My Flabber is absolutely Ghasted!

I have recently been in touch with a lady in England who is also working on the Richmond family, and she had got back to the name "Hool or Hull" , (she comes from one of the other sons of William & Sarah, Joseph Bond Richmond) and I noticed the name Thomasin in there somewhere, and liked it, well it is a bit unusual - but couldn't think of it being at such a distance being relevant! (If you can manage to translate that into readable English)

I have James as being the son of William & Sarah, as that is the one which jumped out at me on Family Search, but what if I was wrong and it was his Brother (?) Cousin(?) or whatever, in the same area, part of the same family who also had a son James? This brings the Thomasin much closer if it was also his Mother's name than where I saw it before, and makes it a real "Family Name".

I don't know where I am!

I am in more of a fankle now than I was before!

Living in hopes of finding out for sure what is going on

Best regards

Ann
Roe/Rowe, Kane, Logue, Harkin, Commons, Gillan, Ireland.
McPherson, Richmond, Bowers, Laird, Russell, Cuthbertson, Scotland

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