I'm totally confused..all the certificates I have on John McCracken don't seem to add up.
The 1841 Census gives his age as 7, born abt 1835 Colmonell, parents John McCracken & Janet McCredie,[nee Fergie or Forgie ].
1851 he was 16....1861 he was 26
His first marriage certificate to Agnes Miller [Sept 22nd 1865 ]gives his age as 28, OK so it's a year or two out BUT on his second marriage certificate to Elizabeth Gibben [ June 5th 1874 ] , nine years later, his age is 30?
What really threw me was his death certificate, he died May 12th 1886 age 43 meaning he was born abt 1843.
Any suggestions as to how I find a birth record for him?
How do I find a birth record pre 1855?
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Brenda
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:32 am
- Location: Adelaide, South Australia [formerly from Glasgow ]
How do I find a birth record pre 1855?
Last edited by Brenda on Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Brenda
Searching for McLean / McCracken / Walker Loag / Murray / Martin / Kennedy / Bain / McCreadie / McKeon / Bannon / Fergie
Searching for McLean / McCracken / Walker Loag / Murray / Martin / Kennedy / Bain / McCreadie / McKeon / Bannon / Fergie
Hi Brenda:
You can check the OPRs (old Parish Registers) on ScotlandsPeople for births or baptisms prior to 1855 - but those are primarily Church of Scotland registrations. Have you checked the International Genealogical Index?
With the ages in the census reports -
at age 7 in 1841, his year of birth would have been 1834
at ages 16 in 1861 and 26 in 1871 his year of birth would have been 1845.
If he was born in 1834:
1841 = 7 : 1861 = 27 : 1871 = 37 : Marr1 1865 = 31 not 28 : Marr2 1874 = 40 not 30 ; Death 1886 = 52 not 43
If he was born in 1845:
1861 = 16 : 1871 = 26 : Marr 1 1865 = 20 not 28 : Marr2 1874 = 29 not 30 : Death 1886 = 41 not 43
Is it possible that you may be working with 2 different John McCrackens?
Have you thought about looking for a death for the John McCracken born about 1834? It sometimes happened that a second child was given the same name if a previous child had died. Have you checked for a John McCracken born in 1845?
The 1834 birth year results in very inconsistent years, but the 1845 birth, while not exact provides more consistent ages.
The Mother's maiden surname has three options. Is that because she was married previously? or is the registration difficult to read?
More questions, rather than answers I'm afraid
Frances
You can check the OPRs (old Parish Registers) on ScotlandsPeople for births or baptisms prior to 1855 - but those are primarily Church of Scotland registrations. Have you checked the International Genealogical Index?
With the ages in the census reports -
at age 7 in 1841, his year of birth would have been 1834
at ages 16 in 1861 and 26 in 1871 his year of birth would have been 1845.
If he was born in 1834:
1841 = 7 : 1861 = 27 : 1871 = 37 : Marr1 1865 = 31 not 28 : Marr2 1874 = 40 not 30 ; Death 1886 = 52 not 43
If he was born in 1845:
1861 = 16 : 1871 = 26 : Marr 1 1865 = 20 not 28 : Marr2 1874 = 29 not 30 : Death 1886 = 41 not 43
Is it possible that you may be working with 2 different John McCrackens?
Have you thought about looking for a death for the John McCracken born about 1834? It sometimes happened that a second child was given the same name if a previous child had died. Have you checked for a John McCracken born in 1845?
The 1834 birth year results in very inconsistent years, but the 1845 birth, while not exact provides more consistent ages.
The Mother's maiden surname has three options. Is that because she was married previously? or is the registration difficult to read?
More questions, rather than answers I'm afraid
Frances
John Kelly (b 22 Sep 1897) eldest child of John Kelly & Christina Lipsett Kelly of Glasgow
-
Brenda
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:32 am
- Location: Adelaide, South Australia [formerly from Glasgow ]
Hi Frances,
I have done all that you suggested but no luck.
All I found was a Jean McCracken born Colmonell 1832 to same parents as John.
I don't want to even think that I have been looking at 2 different Johns for all this time!
I have done all that you suggested but no luck.
All I found was a Jean McCracken born Colmonell 1832 to same parents as John.
I don't want to even think that I have been looking at 2 different Johns for all this time!
Brenda
Searching for McLean / McCracken / Walker Loag / Murray / Martin / Kennedy / Bain / McCreadie / McKeon / Bannon / Fergie
Searching for McLean / McCracken / Walker Loag / Murray / Martin / Kennedy / Bain / McCreadie / McKeon / Bannon / Fergie
Hi Brenda and Frances,
As I said yesterday, I think John told his second wife that he was much younger than he actually was... and the fiction continued when she gave the information for his death certificate! But, as you have noticed, it is not as simple as that
You will have noticed that there are no McCracken births at the right time in Colmonell on the IGI, so that's no help.
The only child born to John McCracken and Janet "McCredie", as you noticed, is a GIRL named Jean-- hmmm. She was baptized in 1832 in Colmonell. And that's it. No more children for that couple...
Okay, so let's assume they were living near Colmonell for awhile but, in fact, John was baptized elsewhere.... but where?
There are no John M*r*k*n* born in Scotland between 1830-1850 to those parents, or even to a John McCracken and Janet of any surname. Since Janet is there having a baby with John already in 1832 and seems to be still there on the later censuses, it would seem that she would have to be the mother. Either he was not baptized by the Church of Scotland, or he was born to another couple and adopted by John and Janet (maybe after wee Jean, who presumably died, she couldn't have any more?)
Sorry, I'm not being much help My brain needs some sleep now, but maybe when the people in Scotland wake up someone will have some more ideas!
![[snore]](./images/smilies/zzz.gif "[snore]")
Sarah
Edit:
I just found a Jean McCredie on the IGI born 31 Aug 1836 in Colmonell, parents James McCredie and Janet Forgie!!! What does this mean? Can't think now... but wasn't Janet Forgie supposed to be the same as Janet McCredie?
Last edit of the day (really!) The male births are not shown on the IGI for that time and place. But on SP there is a John McCredie born to James McCredie and Janet Forgie on 7 Dec 1832 in Colmonell. Still isn't the right birthdate for either one of the John McCrackens!!
As I said yesterday, I think John told his second wife that he was much younger than he actually was... and the fiction continued when she gave the information for his death certificate! But, as you have noticed, it is not as simple as that
You will have noticed that there are no McCracken births at the right time in Colmonell on the IGI, so that's no help.
The only child born to John McCracken and Janet "McCredie", as you noticed, is a GIRL named Jean-- hmmm. She was baptized in 1832 in Colmonell. And that's it. No more children for that couple...
Okay, so let's assume they were living near Colmonell for awhile but, in fact, John was baptized elsewhere.... but where?
There are no John M*r*k*n* born in Scotland between 1830-1850 to those parents, or even to a John McCracken and Janet of any surname. Since Janet is there having a baby with John already in 1832 and seems to be still there on the later censuses, it would seem that she would have to be the mother. Either he was not baptized by the Church of Scotland, or he was born to another couple and adopted by John and Janet (maybe after wee Jean, who presumably died, she couldn't have any more?)
Sorry, I'm not being much help
My brain needs some sleep now, but maybe when the people in Scotland wake up someone will have some more ideas! Sarah
Edit:
I just found a Jean McCredie on the IGI born 31 Aug 1836 in Colmonell, parents James McCredie and Janet Forgie!!! What does this mean? Can't think now... but wasn't Janet Forgie supposed to be the same as Janet McCredie? Last edit of the day (really!) The male births are not shown on the IGI for that time and place. But on SP there is a John McCredie born to James McCredie and Janet Forgie on 7 Dec 1832 in Colmonell. Still isn't the right birthdate for either one of the John McCrackens!!
Last edited by SarahND on Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
sorry to butt in on this thread with a question but if the OPR was maintained by the CoS, who kept the info on the Roman Catholics in the parishes? Sorry if that is a daft question.paddyscar wrote:the OPRs (old Parish Registers) on ScotlandsPeople for births or baptisms prior to 1855 - but those are primarily Church of Scotland registrations.
Maple
Not a daft question at all, Maple23.
Even before compulsory registration began Jan. 1, 1855, individual churches kept their own records.
Some discussion about Roman Catholic records is on our site http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... +registers including a link to the Scottish Catholic Archives http://www.catholic-heritage.net/sca/index.htm
Frances
Even before compulsory registration began Jan. 1, 1855, individual churches kept their own records.
Some discussion about Roman Catholic records is on our site http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... +registers including a link to the Scottish Catholic Archives http://www.catholic-heritage.net/sca/index.htm
Frances
John Kelly (b 22 Sep 1897) eldest child of John Kelly & Christina Lipsett Kelly of Glasgow
Hi all,
I've now had some sleep, but I can't say that things are much clearer
Going over all the info gathered on all the various posts on this family, I saw there was a hole in the data, i.e. the 1871 census. This would be important, since it would be the only census when John was married to Agnes. So... I had a look at the Ancestry index and came up with these confusing details to add to the pot. (Remember these are Ancestry indexes-- so there are lots of errors in transcription)
There is this family with a John born abt 1835 in Colmonell
1871 East Roughal, Colmonell, Ayrshire
John McCracken, 71,head, born Ballantrae, Farmer of 70 acres all arable
Mary McCracken, 68, wife, born Colmonell, Farmer's wife
John McCracken, 26, son, born Colmonell, Ploughman
Thomas McCracken, 24, son, born Colmonell, Genl Labourer
Mary Futton, 35, daughter, born Colmonell, Labourer's wife
William Futton, 24, Son-in-law, born Colmonell, Genl Labourer
Robert Futton, 3, grandson, born Colmonell
John McCincker Futton, 11 Mo, grandson, born Colmonell
William Coutler, 11, grandson, born Colmonel, Scholar
Obviously not our baker, but someone to take into account because of his age and birthplace.
The baker appears with his mother and sister-- no sign of Agnes and the children (do we know that any of the children survivied? Ah yes, I see that he is there in 1881-- hmmm)
1871 18a North Albion St, Glasgow St David
Janet McCracken, 83, head, born Ballantrae, Ayrshire, Lodging Housekeeper
Helen Rint, 45, Step Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Domestic Servant
John McCracken, 56, son, born Comonell, Ayrshire, Journeyman Baker
John Limond, 15, grandson, born Girvan, Ayrshire, Salesman Spirit Shop
Robert Buchan, 27, Lodger, born Muirkirk, Ayrshire, Journeyman Baker
William Millar, 32, Lodger, born Old Cumnock, Ayrshire, Mason
Henry McKay, 29, born Ireland, Provision Merchant
Cathrine Harvey, 60, Serv, born Ireland, General Serv
Note that Janet is still older than we thought. John's age must surely be a mistranscription and he is 36
Helen's illegitimate son has yet another surname BUT, she is listed as the STEP Daur of Janet 
Does this mean we have two Janets and she is the daughter of the first one????!!!!!
I will leave you with that thought and go clean out another closet
Regards,
Sarah
I've now had some sleep, but I can't say that things are much clearer
Going over all the info gathered on all the various posts on this family, I saw there was a hole in the data, i.e. the 1871 census. This would be important, since it would be the only census when John was married to Agnes. So... I had a look at the Ancestry index and came up with these confusing details to add to the pot. (Remember these are Ancestry indexes-- so there are lots of errors in transcription)
There is this family with a John born abt 1835 in Colmonell
1871 East Roughal, Colmonell, Ayrshire
John McCracken, 71,head, born Ballantrae, Farmer of 70 acres all arable
Mary McCracken, 68, wife, born Colmonell, Farmer's wife
John McCracken, 26, son, born Colmonell, Ploughman
Thomas McCracken, 24, son, born Colmonell, Genl Labourer
Mary Futton, 35, daughter, born Colmonell, Labourer's wife
William Futton, 24, Son-in-law, born Colmonell, Genl Labourer
Robert Futton, 3, grandson, born Colmonell
John McCincker Futton, 11 Mo, grandson, born Colmonell
William Coutler, 11, grandson, born Colmonel, Scholar
Obviously not our baker, but someone to take into account because of his age and birthplace.
The baker appears with his mother and sister-- no sign of Agnes and the children (do we know that any of the children survivied? Ah yes, I see that he is there in 1881-- hmmm)
1871 18a North Albion St, Glasgow St David
Janet McCracken, 83, head, born Ballantrae, Ayrshire, Lodging Housekeeper
Helen Rint, 45, Step Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Domestic Servant
John McCracken, 56, son, born Comonell, Ayrshire, Journeyman Baker
John Limond, 15, grandson, born Girvan, Ayrshire, Salesman Spirit Shop
Robert Buchan, 27, Lodger, born Muirkirk, Ayrshire, Journeyman Baker
William Millar, 32, Lodger, born Old Cumnock, Ayrshire, Mason
Henry McKay, 29, born Ireland, Provision Merchant
Cathrine Harvey, 60, Serv, born Ireland, General Serv
Note that Janet is still older than we thought. John's age must surely be a mistranscription and he is 36
Helen's illegitimate son has yet another surname
BUT, she is listed as the STEP Daur of Janet Does this mean we have two Janets and she is the daughter of the first one????!!!!!I will leave you with that thought and go clean out another closet
Regards,
Sarah
Thanks for this info. Another daft question I am afraid, does that mean that Catholics are missing from LDS and SP, therefore missing out a lot of possible ancestors from our trees?paddyscar wrote:Not a daft question at all, Maple23.
Even before compulsory registration began Jan. 1, 1855, individual churches kept their own records.
Some discussion about Roman Catholic records is on our site http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... +registers including a link to the Scottish Catholic Archives http://www.catholic-heritage.net/sca/index.htm
Frances
Maple
Hi Maple,
Only Church of Scotland is on SP. Catholics and various dissenting congregations will not show up on those records.
Brenda,
I'm feeling like we have to try to get all the McCrackens in Colmonell straight, so we can weed out the ones who are not the right family. Here is a contribution in that direction:
Here is the 1851 census for the other John McCracken born 1845 in Colmonell (I assume the one who was a ploughman in 1871). But he is not with his family...
Queen Street, Girvan, Ayrshire
Alexander McCracken, 46, head, born Ballantrae, Ayrshire, Joiner Employing 2 Men
Rachel McCracken, 35, wife, born Portpatrick, Wigtownshire
Sarah Mc Cracken, 16, Daughter, born Stoneykirk
Thomas McCracken, 14, son, born Girvan, Ayrshire, Pupil Teacher "ap"
Alexander McCracken, 11, son, born Girvan, Ayrshire
John McCracken, 8, son, born Girvan, Ayshire, Scholar
William McCracken, 6, son, born Girvan, Ayrshire, Scholar
Margret McCracken, 4, Daughter, born Girvan, Ayrshire
Rachel McCracken, 2, Daughter, born Girvan, Ayrshire
John McCracken, 6, Nephew, born Colmonell, Ayrshire, Scholar
Alexander McCracken, 21, Nephew, born Colmonell, Ayrshire, Joiner Journeyman
James Harper, 23, Apprentice, born Girvan, Ayrshire, Joiner Ap
His family is back in Colmonell
1851 Ruchdale, Colmonell, Ayrshire
John McCracken, 51, head, born Colmonell, Farmer 70 acres
Mary McCracken, 48, wife, daughter, born Colmonell, Farmer's wife
Janet McCracken, 25, daughter, born Colmonell, Farm Servant
Margaret McCracken, 16, daughter, born Colmonell, Servant
Mary McCracken, 15, daughter, born Colmonell, Farmers Daur
Sarah McCracken 13, daughter, born Colmonell, Farmers Daur
Grace McCracken 11, daughter, born Colmonell, Farmers Daur
Thomas McCracken 4, son, born Colmonell, Farmer's son
William McCracken, 3, son, born Colmonell, Farmer's son
This looks to be the family of John McCracken and Mary Dick. Only a few of their children show up on SP, however, unless they are hiding under some name that neither m*r*c*n* nor m*r*k*n* will catch... The John is born in 1827, which is NOT a help!
10/03/1825 MCCRACKEN JANET
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY DICK FR159
F
Colmonell /AYR
582/ 0020 0022
12/05/1827 MCCRACKEN JOHN
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY DICK FR159
M
Colmonell /AYR
582/ 0020 0022
25/06/1829 MCCRACKEN ALEXANDER
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY DICK FR159
M
Colmonell/AYR
582/ 0020 0022
06/03/1842 MCCRACKEN JEAN
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY DICK FR169
F
Colmonell /AYR
582/ 0020 0043
The only other Colmonell McCracken birth between 1820-1854 with father John is:
02/04/1848 MCCRACKEN ISABELLA LOGAN
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY SPROTT FR182
F
Colmonell /AYR
582/ 0020 0068
This couple had two other children in Girvan, one before and one after the Colmonell one:
15/03/1846 MCCRACKEN MARY
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY SPROTT FR751
F
Girvan /AYR
594/ 0030 0357
12/05/1850 MCCRACKEN ELIZABETH
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY SPROAT FR781
F
Girvan /AYR
594/ 0030 0417
It might be a good idea to get the Colmonell film from the LDS and scroll through the whole thing trying to make sure everyone is accounted for. At least they seem to give the mother's name for the births, which is a help!
Okay, back to work...
Regards,
Sarah
In a word, yesmaple23 wrote: does that mean that Catholics are missing from LDS and SP, therefore missing out a lot of possible ancestors from our trees?
Only Church of Scotland is on SP. Catholics and various dissenting congregations will not show up on those records.Brenda,
I'm feeling like we have to try to get all the McCrackens in Colmonell straight, so we can weed out the ones who are not the right family. Here is a contribution in that direction:
Here is the 1851 census for the other John McCracken born 1845 in Colmonell (I assume the one who was a ploughman in 1871). But he is not with his family...
Queen Street, Girvan, Ayrshire
Alexander McCracken, 46, head, born Ballantrae, Ayrshire, Joiner Employing 2 Men
Rachel McCracken, 35, wife, born Portpatrick, Wigtownshire
Sarah Mc Cracken, 16, Daughter, born Stoneykirk
Thomas McCracken, 14, son, born Girvan, Ayrshire, Pupil Teacher "ap"
Alexander McCracken, 11, son, born Girvan, Ayrshire
John McCracken, 8, son, born Girvan, Ayshire, Scholar
William McCracken, 6, son, born Girvan, Ayrshire, Scholar
Margret McCracken, 4, Daughter, born Girvan, Ayrshire
Rachel McCracken, 2, Daughter, born Girvan, Ayrshire
John McCracken, 6, Nephew, born Colmonell, Ayrshire, Scholar
Alexander McCracken, 21, Nephew, born Colmonell, Ayrshire, Joiner Journeyman
James Harper, 23, Apprentice, born Girvan, Ayrshire, Joiner Ap
His family is back in Colmonell
1851 Ruchdale, Colmonell, Ayrshire
John McCracken, 51, head, born Colmonell, Farmer 70 acres
Mary McCracken, 48, wife, daughter, born Colmonell, Farmer's wife
Janet McCracken, 25, daughter, born Colmonell, Farm Servant
Margaret McCracken, 16, daughter, born Colmonell, Servant
Mary McCracken, 15, daughter, born Colmonell, Farmers Daur
Sarah McCracken 13, daughter, born Colmonell, Farmers Daur
Grace McCracken 11, daughter, born Colmonell, Farmers Daur
Thomas McCracken 4, son, born Colmonell, Farmer's son
William McCracken, 3, son, born Colmonell, Farmer's son
This looks to be the family of John McCracken and Mary Dick. Only a few of their children show up on SP, however, unless they are hiding under some name that neither m*r*c*n* nor m*r*k*n* will catch... The John is born in 1827, which is NOT a help!
10/03/1825 MCCRACKEN JANET
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY DICK FR159
F
Colmonell /AYR
582/ 0020 0022
12/05/1827 MCCRACKEN JOHN
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY DICK FR159
M
Colmonell /AYR
582/ 0020 0022
25/06/1829 MCCRACKEN ALEXANDER
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY DICK FR159
M
Colmonell/AYR
582/ 0020 0022
06/03/1842 MCCRACKEN JEAN
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY DICK FR169
F
Colmonell /AYR
582/ 0020 0043
The only other Colmonell McCracken birth between 1820-1854 with father John is:
02/04/1848 MCCRACKEN ISABELLA LOGAN
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY SPROTT FR182
F
Colmonell /AYR
582/ 0020 0068
This couple had two other children in Girvan, one before and one after the Colmonell one:
15/03/1846 MCCRACKEN MARY
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY SPROTT FR751
F
Girvan /AYR
594/ 0030 0357
12/05/1850 MCCRACKEN ELIZABETH
JOHN MCCRACKEN/MARY SPROAT FR781
F
Girvan /AYR
594/ 0030 0417
It might be a good idea to get the Colmonell film from the LDS and scroll through the whole thing trying to make sure everyone is accounted for. At least they seem to give the mother's name for the births, which is a help!
Okay, back to work...
Regards,
Sarah
Hi Sarah and Maple,maple23 wrote:Thanks for this info. Another daft question I am afraid, does that mean that Catholics are missing from LDS and SP, therefore missing out a lot of possible ancestors from our trees?paddyscar wrote:Not a daft question at all, Maple23.
Even before compulsory registration began Jan. 1, 1855, individual churches kept their own records.
Some discussion about Roman Catholic records is on our site http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... +registers including a link to the Scottish Catholic Archives http://www.catholic-heritage.net/sca/index.htm
Frances
Maple
Apologies if I am butting in and have not read through this thread correctly
(wouldn't be the first time) but just wanted to clarify that it is only the OPR's that may be missing Catholic data. Statutory records from 1855 onwards have all denominations.
Kind regards,
Annette M