Carole,
Sorry I did not reply sooner to your PM .
I have had no luck with my relative as she has nothing on that name.
I did notice on SP that some of your family may have become RIMMER. Also there are a couple of names that come up related to the Riemer / Reimer's that are slightly familiar to me
Also to take on board that some times they adopted a more English sounding name ,hence Isaac may have become Izzy / Izzie / Zac /Jack or something else entirely.
Do you know what Isaac's mothers name was?
I did find this though and wonder if it is a possible from this site
http://www.genpals.co.uk/cemeteryproject/index.php
Reiman Isaac John [Yitzhak b Levi]
1839 - 1894
* Individual
* Ancestors
* Descendants
* Relationship
* Timeline
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Personal Information | Sources | All
*
Birth 1839 Germany Prussia Find all individuals with events at this location [1]
Gender Male
Occupation Leather Merchant (1891)
Died 02 Jul 1894
o GRO: Sep 1894 Reimann John 54 St. Olave 1d 103
Buried West Ham Cemetery Find all individuals with events at this location
o Inscription: Isaac John REIMANN who departed this life July 2nd 1894 Sivan 28th 5654 aged 55 years.
From the Hebrew inscription: Mr Yitzhak bar Levi died Mon 28 Sivan 5654.
o Not found in United Synagogue online burial records
Reimann, Isaac John Reimann, Isaac John
Status: Located. Ref: GL1220ab
Person ID I6002 Cemetery Project
Last Modified 27 Dec 2008 10:07:09
====================================
I am in the same situation,as there is no Death Certificate issued for my Great Grandmother and it has been posted on relevant site saying that there was no registration !!!!!!!!!
Frustration as it means I cannot go back on her parents .
I also can't find a Certificate for a second marriage of my Great Grandfather, yet his Scottish death cert states he was married twice and what her name was !!!!!!!
Unable to find dc for Isaac RIEMER 1896
Moderator: Global Moderators
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Currie
- Posts: 3924
- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
- Location: Australia
Hello Carole,
At the end of September 1895 Isaac had Bronchitis serious enough to be off work and applying for Poor Relief. How long did you have to be off work to apply for Poor Relief, did you have to wait until all other available forms of sustenance, anything you had yourself or could get from elsewhere had been exhausted? In other words could you only get Poor Relief if you were desperate?
Bronchitis can be in different forms and degrees of seriousness and can develop into even more serious illnesses. I don’t know what the treatment was in 1895 but here’s a long-winded description from the 1911 Encyclopaedia including ways in which the disease can result in death. http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Bronchitis
I’m inclined to think that if he was that sick he wouldn’t have gone off very soon afterwards on an overseas trip. The notes in the Poor Relief records suggest that he died between September 1895 and October 1896. The date on the piece of paper is within that window.
Was there a standard rate of Poor Relief? If she was on 4/6 as a Widow with X number of children in October 1896 and she had been on the same rate the prior April does this suggest the family circumstances were the same? Is there a clue as to the reason for the drop from 5/- such as the loss of a child?
As regards the lack of deceased on the child’s birth I’ve seen a couple of cases where a very recent death has not been taken account of on census forms, almost as if they had not come to grips with the reality of the situation. Is it possible also that the lady may not have been sufficiently conversant with English and her husband had previously handled all such matters.
Is it possible that the death was in Scotland but that the search facility at SP is not flexible enough to ever bring it to light. If the death was in Scotland maybe a browsing of the Registers themselves or their microfilms would produce results that an SP search cannot. With English records that amateur outfit FreeBMD can find all the Isaac deaths in a District and time period no trouble at all.
Just some thoughts,
Alan
At the end of September 1895 Isaac had Bronchitis serious enough to be off work and applying for Poor Relief. How long did you have to be off work to apply for Poor Relief, did you have to wait until all other available forms of sustenance, anything you had yourself or could get from elsewhere had been exhausted? In other words could you only get Poor Relief if you were desperate?
Bronchitis can be in different forms and degrees of seriousness and can develop into even more serious illnesses. I don’t know what the treatment was in 1895 but here’s a long-winded description from the 1911 Encyclopaedia including ways in which the disease can result in death. http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Bronchitis
I’m inclined to think that if he was that sick he wouldn’t have gone off very soon afterwards on an overseas trip. The notes in the Poor Relief records suggest that he died between September 1895 and October 1896. The date on the piece of paper is within that window.
Was there a standard rate of Poor Relief? If she was on 4/6 as a Widow with X number of children in October 1896 and she had been on the same rate the prior April does this suggest the family circumstances were the same? Is there a clue as to the reason for the drop from 5/- such as the loss of a child?
As regards the lack of deceased on the child’s birth I’ve seen a couple of cases where a very recent death has not been taken account of on census forms, almost as if they had not come to grips with the reality of the situation. Is it possible also that the lady may not have been sufficiently conversant with English and her husband had previously handled all such matters.
Is it possible that the death was in Scotland but that the search facility at SP is not flexible enough to ever bring it to light. If the death was in Scotland maybe a browsing of the Registers themselves or their microfilms would produce results that an SP search cannot. With English records that amateur outfit FreeBMD can find all the Isaac deaths in a District and time period no trouble at all.
Just some thoughts,
Alan
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LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Hi Carole
If after week or so of us looking, there is still no sign, I would be tempted to contact GROS directly and ask if they might help, giving them the dates and the facts as you have outlined abouve.
You have an idea of the most likely registration district, you have a particular date which was given to you. They have access on their PCs to a feature the public cannot access where they can look through the pages in a register in sequence for a particular date, rather then just the one page at a time as the public can see.
As Alan mentions, if he had bronchitis, which was the cause of the demise of quite a few on my tree, usually after applying for poor relief too, then he is unlikely to have taken off on a trip out of the county.
I'm sure you have looked at it carefully, but I would also go back and read the copy of the Poor Relief application again, just incase you have missed a "scribble" - it is easy to miss some things as the photocopies can be less clear then the original. Often, if a someone who had been claiming relief dies, their date of death is noted and you then may see the widow listed as in receipt of some relief.
I had a similar case in my own tree a while back. I had the date of death from the Poor Relief document, but could not find it on SP, despite trying every which way I could. I ended up going to GROS and trying there, but still no joy. In the end I explained the problem to a member of staff who was able to search by the date and reg. district, and there she was. The reason I'd not found her was that although I'd wildcarded to death on the more unusual surname, I'd assumed the more common surname had been spelt pretty much as as usual, which , of course, it had not! In addition all her life she was known by two first names, and their variations, so you were never quite sure what first name she would be listed under...
Best wishes
Lesley
If after week or so of us looking, there is still no sign, I would be tempted to contact GROS directly and ask if they might help, giving them the dates and the facts as you have outlined abouve.
You have an idea of the most likely registration district, you have a particular date which was given to you. They have access on their PCs to a feature the public cannot access where they can look through the pages in a register in sequence for a particular date, rather then just the one page at a time as the public can see.
As Alan mentions, if he had bronchitis, which was the cause of the demise of quite a few on my tree, usually after applying for poor relief too, then he is unlikely to have taken off on a trip out of the county.
I'm sure you have looked at it carefully, but I would also go back and read the copy of the Poor Relief application again, just incase you have missed a "scribble" - it is easy to miss some things as the photocopies can be less clear then the original. Often, if a someone who had been claiming relief dies, their date of death is noted and you then may see the widow listed as in receipt of some relief.
I had a similar case in my own tree a while back. I had the date of death from the Poor Relief document, but could not find it on SP, despite trying every which way I could. I ended up going to GROS and trying there, but still no joy. In the end I explained the problem to a member of staff who was able to search by the date and reg. district, and there she was. The reason I'd not found her was that although I'd wildcarded to death on the more unusual surname, I'd assumed the more common surname had been spelt pretty much as as usual, which , of course, it had not! In addition all her life she was known by two first names, and their variations, so you were never quite sure what first name she would be listed under...
Best wishes
Lesley
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casserole
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:20 pm
Hello Maureen,
Thank you for the genpals site. Unfortunately I'm sure that the Isaac John REIMMAN that you found is not mine. He was born too early and my Isaac was a poor tailors presser in Glasgow. It would have been lovely if it had been him.
Keep in touch re the RIEMER/REIMER surname and others if you want any of the information I have.
Many thanks
Carole
Thank you for the genpals site. Unfortunately I'm sure that the Isaac John REIMMAN that you found is not mine. He was born too early and my Isaac was a poor tailors presser in Glasgow. It would have been lovely if it had been him.
Keep in touch re the RIEMER/REIMER surname and others if you want any of the information I have.
Many thanks
Carole
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casserole
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:20 pm
Hello Alan,
Thank you for your reply.
I don't know how long a person had to be off work to apply for relief but Isaac was fairly poor and the application states that he had 'no means' and was 'in no society'.. I believe that this would have been an insurance society which would have been contributed to weekly. So, yes, I would say that you had to be desperate before being considered for relief.
I, too, have always thought that he would have been too ill to go anywhere but when I began to 'talk' to those on the list I was looking at every possibility.
I can't tell you if there was a standard rate for Poor Relief. Since the first entry is for 5/- and the others for 4/6 I suppose if it possible that the extra was to help with funeral expenses. Four of their children did die in infancy but earlier than 1896.
Your suggestion re the lack of English language is good.
I see that Lesley has posted a message after yours to suggest the same i.e. to consult or request a search of the records at GROS. I think I will follow this line of enquiry as I am now back to believing that Isaac died in Glasgow.
Thank you for all your suggestions and help, Alan,
much appreciated.
Carole
Thank you for your reply.
I don't know how long a person had to be off work to apply for relief but Isaac was fairly poor and the application states that he had 'no means' and was 'in no society'.. I believe that this would have been an insurance society which would have been contributed to weekly. So, yes, I would say that you had to be desperate before being considered for relief.
I, too, have always thought that he would have been too ill to go anywhere but when I began to 'talk' to those on the list I was looking at every possibility.
I can't tell you if there was a standard rate for Poor Relief. Since the first entry is for 5/- and the others for 4/6 I suppose if it possible that the extra was to help with funeral expenses. Four of their children did die in infancy but earlier than 1896.
Your suggestion re the lack of English language is good.
I see that Lesley has posted a message after yours to suggest the same i.e. to consult or request a search of the records at GROS. I think I will follow this line of enquiry as I am now back to believing that Isaac died in Glasgow.
Thank you for all your suggestions and help, Alan,
much appreciated.
Carole
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casserole
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:20 pm
Hello Lesley,
Thank you for suggesting I contact GROS. I thought that scotlandspeople would have the same facilities as GROS and didn't realise that they had another search facility. It's certainly worth a try. Will now go and scan the Poor Relief Application with a magnifying glass to see if I HAVE missed anything!!
Many thanks for your help, Lesley. I'll post a message if I hit the jackpot at GROS. If I do then you might even hear the shouts of joy from here in Kent!!
All the best,
Carole
Thank you for suggesting I contact GROS. I thought that scotlandspeople would have the same facilities as GROS and didn't realise that they had another search facility. It's certainly worth a try. Will now go and scan the Poor Relief Application with a magnifying glass to see if I HAVE missed anything!!
Many thanks for your help, Lesley. I'll post a message if I hit the jackpot at GROS. If I do then you might even hear the shouts of joy from here in Kent!!
All the best,
Carole
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Montrose Budie
- Posts: 713
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:37 pm
Hi Carole
Some observations:
1. Isaac's age in the 1891 census is 32, - the thick, apparantly black, line through the age is a clerk ensuring that he has noted the fact that he's counted this record in his statistics. In fact, it's not black but blue or red pencil, so that the age is obvious on the original, so that the figure in the SP index can be trusted.
2. As you note Rebecca REIMER was born 26Dec1895, registered by her mother on 23Jan1896, by which time, according to your info, Isaac was dead.
That fact should appear on Rebecca's birth registration, but it's far from unknown for this info not to come through on the birth registration. If Jeanie didn't volunteer the fact, and the registrar didn't ask ...........
3. I'm unclear as to just what poor relief info exists. For what period did Jeanie receive relief? (Incidentally, the award of relief, in- or out-relief, the former as accommodation in the poor house, the more frequent latter as support in cash and/or kind didn't have a qualifying period. The sole criterion was the ability of the applicant to support themself. For example, it was frequently the case that someone was able to obtain employment during the summer months, but had to resort to poor relief at other times of the year.)
When someone in receipt of poor relief, or their spouse, died, I'd expect to the full details of this recorded, most especially in the comprehensive Glasgow poor relief records!
4. In the 1901 census Jane records herself as a widow.
5. I've also tried some of my own 'magic' in relation to wildcards, not least taking into account that ScotlandsPeople will accept a leading surname wildcard, and wildcards in given names, but with no success.
6. Which all leads me to the conclusion that Isaac's death record is either hiding behing a completely impenetrable mis-indexing of the record, or that he didn't depart this mortal coil in Scotland.
7. Let's also put it this way, - there could be some element of mis-representation here.
My best personal example relates to my eponymous great grandfather, who, according to the the Montrose year books was deceased prior to 1901, given that his wife wife was reported as widow, except that he died some years later in Dundee, cause of death cirrhosis of the liver, and, when the 1901 census for Scotland became available, was to be found in Montrose in the household of a widow as a lodger, only a few hundred yards away from the household of his wife.
Draw you own conclusions !
It took me 8 years to find his death record in Dundee.
Orraverybest
mb
Some observations:
1. Isaac's age in the 1891 census is 32, - the thick, apparantly black, line through the age is a clerk ensuring that he has noted the fact that he's counted this record in his statistics. In fact, it's not black but blue or red pencil, so that the age is obvious on the original, so that the figure in the SP index can be trusted.
2. As you note Rebecca REIMER was born 26Dec1895, registered by her mother on 23Jan1896, by which time, according to your info, Isaac was dead.
That fact should appear on Rebecca's birth registration, but it's far from unknown for this info not to come through on the birth registration. If Jeanie didn't volunteer the fact, and the registrar didn't ask ...........
3. I'm unclear as to just what poor relief info exists. For what period did Jeanie receive relief? (Incidentally, the award of relief, in- or out-relief, the former as accommodation in the poor house, the more frequent latter as support in cash and/or kind didn't have a qualifying period. The sole criterion was the ability of the applicant to support themself. For example, it was frequently the case that someone was able to obtain employment during the summer months, but had to resort to poor relief at other times of the year.)
When someone in receipt of poor relief, or their spouse, died, I'd expect to the full details of this recorded, most especially in the comprehensive Glasgow poor relief records!
4. In the 1901 census Jane records herself as a widow.
5. I've also tried some of my own 'magic' in relation to wildcards, not least taking into account that ScotlandsPeople will accept a leading surname wildcard, and wildcards in given names, but with no success.
6. Which all leads me to the conclusion that Isaac's death record is either hiding behing a completely impenetrable mis-indexing of the record, or that he didn't depart this mortal coil in Scotland.
7. Let's also put it this way, - there could be some element of mis-representation here.
My best personal example relates to my eponymous great grandfather, who, according to the the Montrose year books was deceased prior to 1901, given that his wife wife was reported as widow, except that he died some years later in Dundee, cause of death cirrhosis of the liver, and, when the 1901 census for Scotland became available, was to be found in Montrose in the household of a widow as a lodger, only a few hundred yards away from the household of his wife.
Draw you own conclusions !
It took me 8 years to find his death record in Dundee.
Orraverybest
mb
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casserole
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:20 pm
Hello mb,
Thank you for confirming the age of Isaac on the 1891 census. That is a good help.
I have searched thoroughly on the copy of the b.c. of Rebecca 26th December 1895 but there is definitely no mention of Isaac being deceased. Jane/Jeanie her mother has signed with her mark.
This is the information on the Application for Poor Relief 24th September 1895:-
First page gives details of Isaac, his family and his parents Hyman Rimer and Mary- both dead.
Question: wholly or partially disabled? Answer: partially.
Second page is Assistant Inspector's Report and is dated a day later.
This gives similar information as the first page but includes their residences since arriving in Glasgow. It confirms Isaac has bronchitis.
Third page is Decision of Committee
5/- per week - 4 weeks in advance 27/9/95
16th October 1895 - 20/- paid and off. Poorhouse - not in.
Is this where he might have gone off somewhere? No matter how I try I can't get out of my mind that he didn't die in Scotland. I will contact GROS to make the search that Lesley suggested.
Fourth page gives details
12 Feb 1896 - 5/- per week per inspt. Poorhouse per com. Not in
21 April 1896 - 4/6 per week
20 Oct 1896 - Widow - 4/6 per week & clothing
10 Nov 1897 - " 4/6 " "
12 Oct 1898 - " 4/6 " "
13 Feby 1901 - 3/6 per week Agnes earning 3/6 per week. 2 Dept.
13 Jany 1904 - Off roll Income sufficient
14 Decr 1904 - Grant clothing
13 Decr 1905 - Grant clothing
12 Decr 1906 - " "
13 Janr 1908 - " "
13 Jany 1909 - " "
15 Jany 1913 - Delay for a month
4 Sept 1918 - Applied 20/8/18 Withdrawn
2 Oct 1918 - PoHo for treatment. In 28/9/18. Left 5/10/18
Although above doesn't mention names, apart from their daughter Agnes (Hoddas) earning, I believe the relief to be for Isaac's widow Jane/Jeanie. She died 16th October 1918 in Gorbals.
The medical certificate for Isaac is for Govan Combination Parish Council and is dated 24th September 1895.
Is he in good health: no
Is he able to work: no
Nature of applicant's sickness or infirmity: bronchitis
Does he require immediate attention: no
I received these page copies from the Archives at Mitchell Library. I asked them to send everything that they had re this application. All I can do now is pay a visit to the Mitchell when I am next in Glasgow from Kent and check that there isn't another page with the vital information on it.
I take your point about the misrepresentation and will not dismiss that possibility. Since Jane has signed with her mark on the birth certificate of Agnes there is a good chance that she omitted to tell the registrar.
Thank you so much for your help, mb.
Carole
Thank you for confirming the age of Isaac on the 1891 census. That is a good help.
I have searched thoroughly on the copy of the b.c. of Rebecca 26th December 1895 but there is definitely no mention of Isaac being deceased. Jane/Jeanie her mother has signed with her mark.
This is the information on the Application for Poor Relief 24th September 1895:-
First page gives details of Isaac, his family and his parents Hyman Rimer and Mary- both dead.
Question: wholly or partially disabled? Answer: partially.
Second page is Assistant Inspector's Report and is dated a day later.
This gives similar information as the first page but includes their residences since arriving in Glasgow. It confirms Isaac has bronchitis.
Third page is Decision of Committee
5/- per week - 4 weeks in advance 27/9/95
16th October 1895 - 20/- paid and off. Poorhouse - not in.
Is this where he might have gone off somewhere? No matter how I try I can't get out of my mind that he didn't die in Scotland. I will contact GROS to make the search that Lesley suggested.
Fourth page gives details
12 Feb 1896 - 5/- per week per inspt. Poorhouse per com. Not in
21 April 1896 - 4/6 per week
20 Oct 1896 - Widow - 4/6 per week & clothing
10 Nov 1897 - " 4/6 " "
12 Oct 1898 - " 4/6 " "
13 Feby 1901 - 3/6 per week Agnes earning 3/6 per week. 2 Dept.
13 Jany 1904 - Off roll Income sufficient
14 Decr 1904 - Grant clothing
13 Decr 1905 - Grant clothing
12 Decr 1906 - " "
13 Janr 1908 - " "
13 Jany 1909 - " "
15 Jany 1913 - Delay for a month
4 Sept 1918 - Applied 20/8/18 Withdrawn
2 Oct 1918 - PoHo for treatment. In 28/9/18. Left 5/10/18
Although above doesn't mention names, apart from their daughter Agnes (Hoddas) earning, I believe the relief to be for Isaac's widow Jane/Jeanie. She died 16th October 1918 in Gorbals.
The medical certificate for Isaac is for Govan Combination Parish Council and is dated 24th September 1895.
Is he in good health: no
Is he able to work: no
Nature of applicant's sickness or infirmity: bronchitis
Does he require immediate attention: no
I received these page copies from the Archives at Mitchell Library. I asked them to send everything that they had re this application. All I can do now is pay a visit to the Mitchell when I am next in Glasgow from Kent and check that there isn't another page with the vital information on it.
I take your point about the misrepresentation and will not dismiss that possibility. Since Jane has signed with her mark on the birth certificate of Agnes there is a good chance that she omitted to tell the registrar.
Thank you so much for your help, mb.
Carole
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LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Hi Carole
Best wishes
Lesley
If Isaac was the original applicant for relief, I'd expect the above list to mean that on 12 Feb & 21 April, Isaac was in receipt of relief. It looks like "widow" did not receive relief directly paid to her intil 21 April 1896.12 Feb 1896 - 5/- per week per inspt. Poorhouse per com. Not in
21 April 1896 - 4/6 per week
20 Oct 1896 - Widow - 4/6 per week & clothing
Best wishes
Lesley
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casserole
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:20 pm