71 Duke Street, Glasgow - hospital?

[nelmit]

Andrew,

Thanks - something else learned.

Donna,

I don't think The Mitchell hold prison records but there is a Police Book upstairs. I'll have a look at that.

I can't help but note that the Birth Certificate states the Burgh as HIGH CHURCH. Isn't that part of PAISLEY ?
There is a DUKE STREET in Paisley just of the Nelston Road.
Could it be this.

Cheers.

Hello Momat,

It's in the district of High Church in the burgh of Glasgow.

Kind regards,
Annette M

[DavidWW]

A relationship to the child was not a prerequisite!

In order of preference, "qualified" informants were :

1. The parents
2. Person in charge of the child
3. "Occupier" of the house where born.
4. Nurse present at the birth. And in the event of failure of the foregoing.
5. "Any other person having knowledge of the particulars" (sec 27 of 1854 Act).

Source Bisset-Smith's "Vital Registration: A Manual of the Law and Practice etc."." 1907.

David

[DavidWW]

.....snipped...........Any idea whether they keep prison records and if so where?

Donna
x

Have a look at the online catalogue for NAS. If that, or separate contact with NAS doesn't help, try asking The Mitchell.

David

[LesleyB]

As far as I remember NAS do hold some records for Duke Street Prison. The ref I have note of is HH21/32 for the series: long list of dates on NAS site!

Best wishes
Lesley

[Jockbird]

Good morning everyone!

Sorry I've not replied sooner, sleep & mum duties like clothing and feeding children and the school run had to be done

Thank you for all your replies.

I did spend some time late last night looking for the various names I've got for this person (always assuming they are one in the same but knowing it may just be a huge coincidence) and the NAS did not have anything specific.

Thank you for the reference Lesley re the Duke Street Prison records, she was able to be an informant on death certificates in August 1863 and April 1865 (don't know if you can do that if you were inside) but wasn't available or didn't sign the December 1863 death cert, if she was in the prison in late 1863 and 1864 then those dates are covered by the dates stated by the NAS.

Annette, I'd be very grateful if you could have a wee look at the Police Book as I, nor my cousin, will get to the NAS anytime soon. Catherine, bless her, wasn't literate and, it would appear, wasn't overly numerate when it came to her age so a wide net may have to be spread.....one thing is definite husband is Roderick and sometimes goes by the name of Rory.

5. "Any other person having knowledge of the particulars" (sec 27 of 1854 Act).

David, bearing in mind the run around some of these informants give us I really do wonder if they had any knowledge of this planet let alone the particulars!

All the best
Donna
x

p.s. Thank Momat but this James was most definitely born in High Church, Glasgow.

[DavidWW]

...snipped .....I did spend some time late last night looking for the various names I've got for this person (always assuming they are one in the same but knowing it may just be a huge coincidence) and the NAS did not have anything specific.

Which implies that the trial was in the Sheriff Court, and many of these records have not survived

....snipped......................

Annette, I'd be very grateful if you could have a wee look at the Police Book as I, nor my cousin, will get to the NAS anytime soon. Catherine, bless her, wasn't literate and, it would appear, wasn't overly numerate when it came to her age so a wide net may have to be spread.....one thing is definite husband is Roderick and sometimes goes by the name of Rory.

If the Police Occurrences Book survives, this is well worth a look ..........

5. "Any other person having knowledge of the particulars" (sec 27 of 1854 Act).

David, bearing in mind the run around some of these informants give us I really do wonder if they had any knowledge of this planet let alone the particulars!

In such a situation the registrar would require to be convinced of the accuracy of the info and how the informant came by it!

David

[Jockbird]

Thanks for that David.

This birth cert still makes me a bit uneasy. James's parents were Roderick McNeil and Catherine McKinnon and if they did marry in 1843 then Catherine would only have been 13 or so, based on census age.

I'm wondering if the facts were 'lost in translation', Catherine was from Barra, perhaps her accent led to her name being given as McKenna for the maiden name....as for the marriage...well it says 'about 1843 Glasgow'.

I have looked at Catherine (McKenna) McNeil deaths and none of them 'fit'...that said I've not found Catherine (McKinnon) McNeil's death yet......not for the want of trying!

Perhaps I have the wrong James birth cert but tracking back from 1871, I have him, aged 7, with his mother in the same address as the Usual Residence which was given when his father died in 1865. Perhaps I need to look at all James Mcneil's born in Glasgow but the one I have, despite being not fully accurate, does have a good strike rate.

It's all questions with this lot and not many answers

Donna
x

[DavidWW]

Thanks for that David.

This birth cert still makes me a bit uneasy. James's parents were Roderick McNeil and Catherine McKinnon and if they did marry in 1843 then Catherine would only have been 13 or so, based on census age.

I'm wondering if the facts were 'lost in translation', Catherine was from Barra, perhaps her accent led to her name being given as McKenna for the maiden name....as for the marriage...well it says 'about 1843 Glasgow'.

A "DavidWW hmmmmmmm......." I'm afraid, as, even if "about 1843" could or should have been 1840, that still makes her 16, - OK, not impossible ..........

The possible "ear of the hearer" effect always has to be taken into account, and, in this case, if the nurse wasn't also from the Outer Hebrides, who knows what could have been heard, never mind all this in the throes of childbirth, or soon after.

Thinks!, - is Catherine shown as a Gaelic speaker in any later censuses that you have, as that in itself, could have led to an interesting situation, should her English have been less than ideal .............

...I have looked at Catherine (McKenna) McNeil deaths and none of them 'fit'...that said I've not found Catherine (McKinnon) McNeil's death yet......not for the want of trying!

Daft question, maybe Have you used wildcards?, and the year of birth filter on ScotlandsPeople?, - starting with, say +/- 1 on the year of birth and then going wider in terms of the +/- .

As well as the cross-check search on the maiden and married surnames, but with liberal use again of wildcards?, again in conjunction with the year of birth, but leaving that at +/- 5 , even +/- 10 ?.............

...Perhaps I have the wrong James birth cert but tracking back from 1871, I have him, aged 7, with his mother in the same address as the Usual Residence which was given when his father died in 1865. Perhaps I need to look at all James Mcneil's born in Glasgow but the one I have, despite being not fully accurate, does have a good strike rate.

Not easy given that combination of names. What info do later censuses provide?, - in particular, do they confirm the 1871 info, or just lead to confusion

...It's all questions with this lot and not many answers

It was ever thus

David

[Jockbird]

Hi David,

I've only got the one census which shows Catherine with James, living in 6 Park Place, Kinning Park, Govan and that's the 1871. It doesn't have about the English or Gaelic bit and Cathrine gives her age as 40....hmmmm. Takes us back to a possible 13 year olds marriage.

If she is one in the same with the other Catherine McNeil/McKinnon then she has used several names and I've also seen McNeil spelt as McNiell...with this in mind my wildcards for her death have been the following:

Cat M*N*L 1827 +/- 5 then 10

M*k*nn*/M*N*l

I've used K for the first initial and I've also opted for unrecorded ages. I chose 1827 as a birth year as that covered the widest margin for the different ages I have , age 32 in an 1855 marriage, age 34 in the 1861 census and 40 in the 1871 census.

I've also taken into account that she could be living anywhere in Scotland and looked up under M*K*nn* on it's own too.

When the different results have come back I have, taking into account finances, started off with those ticking most boxes....hence the reason I started looking at James's birth in more detail to see if I could get any more clues.


The 1855 marriage states it's her first but her husband's 3rd....oh gosh...what if he was in with her too and it's his first marriage they've put The mind boggles!

Donna
x

[LesleyB]

Hi Donna
Having spent time about a year ago in West Register House (NAS) chasing up a prison record, as far as I remember it was a lengthy process - first you need to order in advance of your visit the index books for the prison to find the ref, for the book which gives more detail on their admission etc. Then you need to order in advance of your next visit the second book, for which you now have a reference, so even if you are very organsied, it is a two visit job!
As far as I rememebr, neither series of books is stored on site.

Best wishes
Lesley