John Skinner - can you decipher this entry please?

[AndrewP]

I'm not sure what that tells us about John & Ann. I wonder what "given up" means as well as "refused".

I take "given up" to mean that Ann gave (up) the name of John Skinner when asked who the father was; and "refused" that John Skinner refused to admit the child to be his.

All the best,

AndrewP

[nelmit]

I think the Kirk Sessions are the way to go forward (if only to discount John Skinner the school teacher )

I think there is a good chance that this is Ann Ross and family considering the addresses. I notice that your John had a son named George who registered the death. John Skinner senior's occupation is given as Farmer and not Farrier on the death entry.

If you have a look at them on FREECEN you can view their neighbours

1841 -
Piece: SCT1841/252 Place: Banchory-Ternan -Kincardineshire Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Banchory Ternan Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 2 Page: 7
Address: Burn Of Bennie

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
ROSS George M 40 Ag.Lab Outside Census County (1841)
ROSS Ann (Mrs) F 40 Kincardineshire
ROSS Margt F 9 Kincardineshire
ROSS Jean F 7 Kincardineshire
ROSS George M 3 Kincardineshire
ROSS Ann F 1 Kincardineshire
ROSS Ann F Unknown Female Servant Kincardineshire Age not enumerated.

1851 -
Piece: SCT1851/252 Place: Banchory-Ternan -Kincardineshire Enumeration District: 8
Civil Parish: Banchory Ternan Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 198 Page: 1 Schedule: 1
Address: Woodend

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
ROSS George Head M M 53 Stonedyker Farming 4 Acres Aberdeenshire - Aboyne
ROSS Ann Wife M F 51 Kincardineshire - Banchory
ROSS Ann Dau U F 10 Scholar Kincardineshire - Banchory
ROSS Isabella Dau - F 8 Scholar Kincardineshire - Banchory
ROSS Ann Sister U F 45 Pauper Formerly Servant Kincardineshire - Banchory
BURNETT Jane Visitr U F 15 Farm Servant Kincardineshire - Banchory

Regards,
Annette

[nelmit]

I found this Skinner family at Bridge of Bennie in 1851 at FREECEN -

Piece: SCT1851/252 Place: Banchory-Ternan -Kincardineshire Enumeration District: 7
Civil Parish: Banchory Ternan Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 198 Page: 1 Schedule: 3
Address: Burn Of Bennia

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
TAYLOR Elesbath Head W F 74 Farmer 11 Acres 1 Servant Aberdeenshire - Midmar
SKINNER Andrew Son U M 45 Farmer's Son Kincardineshire - Banchory-Ternan
SKINNER David Son U M 43 House Carpenter Kincardineshire - Banchory-Ternan
SKINNER Robert Son U M 41 Labourer Kincardineshire - Banchory-Ternan
SKINNER Alexander Grnson U M 7 Scholar Kincardineshire - Banchory-Ternan
CRAIGMILE Jessie Servnt U F 19 House Servant Aberdeenshire - Kincardine O'neil

Since Elizabeth Taylor/Skinner died in 1855 I had a look at her death entry as I knew it would list her children. The death entry shows she also had a son John age 52 so born about 1803 and still living in 1855.

I know there is no conclusive proof but I'd put my money on this man if you can find him!

Strangely enough he was born around the same time as the School Master...................

Regards,
Annette

[unklee]

I'm not sure what that tells us about John & Ann. I wonder what "given up" means as well as "refused".

I take "given up" to mean that Ann gave (up) the name of John Skinner when asked who the father was; and "refused" that John Skinner refused to admit the child to be his.

Andrew, I think that is the only thing it can mean, but it seems a slightly strange choice of words. But perhaps Kirk Sessions had their own jargon. Thanks.

[Elwyn 1]

[
Andrew, I think that is the only thing it can mean, but it seems a slightly strange choice of words. But perhaps Kirk Sessions had their own jargon. Thanks.

I have seen "given up" used before, in the context of naming someone. It was just the way of speaking, or writing, at that time.

[unklee]

Annette, that is all amazing, thank you very much. I have been doing this family history research on and off for several years, but I am still learning. I only recently discovered FreeCen, and would you believe I had forgotten to use it in this case. Thanks too for correcting my misreading of "farmer" as "farrier". I think you are right.

Your discoveries open up some interesting thoughts.

1. They confirm that Ann Ross is a common name (three of them living at one address in 1841!) and therefore it takes a lot of time to go through all the possibilities.

2. If it is her in that household, aged 45 in 1851, then she would have been born in 1805 or thereabouts, making her 19 when she had her son and thus about 18 when he was conceived.

3. A visitor to the Ross household in 1851 was Jane Burnett, and George's wife Ann's maiden name was Burnett according to some records I found. So that also fits. Ann (George's wife) was a pauper in the 1871 census, in addition to Ann (George's sister) being a pauper in 1851.

(There seemed to be a lot of poverty around, because another Ann Ross, who I thought could have been the one I am looking for, born in Fordoun, was a pauper in Banchory (Auchattie) in both 1851 and 1861. But your information seems to show she was not the one I'm looking for. But that's three different people named Ann Ross living in Banchory and named as paupers in one or more of the 1851, 1861 & 1871 censuses.)

4. If the John Skinner, son of Elizabeth Taylor/Skinner, is the one we want, and the two families lived so close together, it is understandable that he went somewhere else - from Banchory to neighbouring Drumoak. But I am still questioning this identification. I have his birth details (b Nov 1803 to William Skinner and Elizabeth Taylor), his marriage (to Jean Fraser, July 1826 at Drumoak) and his appearance in the 1841 & 1851 censuses as a schoolmaster at Banchory, but I didn't have the information from his mother's death, so I too am pretty sure they are all the same person.

My problem is that John Skinner Jr apparently thought his father was a farmer (not farrier!) and not a school master. I checked the population of Drumoak around that time and it was about 800, and the breakup was about 100 males aged 15-30, so I guess there could easily have been 2 John Skinners around at that time - the schoolmaster and the farmer. But I haven't been able so far to find another John Skinner there.

So I conclude that you have almost certainly found the correct Ann Ross, but I am still unsure about the correct John Skinner - who may or may not have been the true father of John Skinner Jr. Thanks heaps! I will try to confirm some of this, and the Kirk Session records are my next port of call.

[nelmit]

..................................................

My problem is that John Skinner Jr apparently thought his father was a farmer (not farrier!) and not a school master. I checked the population of Drumoak around that time and it was about 800, and the breakup was about 100 males aged 15-30, so I guess there could easily have been 2 John Skinners around at that time - the schoolmaster and the farmer. But I haven't been able so far to find another John Skinner there.

So I conclude that you have almost certainly found the correct Ann Ross, but I am still unsure about the correct John Skinner - who may or may not have been the true father of John Skinner Jr. Thanks heaps! I will try to confirm some of this, and the Kirk Session records are my next port of call.

I totally agree with your 2nd paragraph 100%.

More fuel for the fire though..............In 1826 John Skinner (School Master) married Jean Fraser at Drumoak and in 1871 he is a farmer at Kincardine O'Neil.

Hopefully the Kirk Sessions will be fruitful.

Regards,
Annette

[unklee]

Hi Annette,

(I didn't mean to post this, so I am adding a couple of things.)

You keep on giving me good information - thanks a lot. I had checked out the schoolmaster John Skinner in the 1841 & 1851 censuses, but hadn't followed him through after that - there are so many Ann Rosses and so many John Skinners, I haven't worked my way through them all yet. But looking up the 1871 census now, it must be the same person (age is right, birthplace is right, name of wife is right first name and maiden name).

So that really settles it, doesn't it? For some reason the schoolmaster became a farmer of 15 acres. I wonder why? I have looked up the social standings of different people, and while farmer of 15 acres is higher in the pecking order than a agricultural labourer, I wouldn't have thought it would be higher than a schoolmaster. So he appears to have come down in status. I don't know, I'm guessing, but if schools were privately run and times were tough, perhaps he couldn't earn a living at it. But then again, he was 67 by then, and perhaps retired from teaching.

I think, thanks to your unexpected help, I have the correct people. I'll now try to trace their births and deaths. I have John's birth but not Ann's, but I'm doubtful of getting their deaths. In researching the Parish of Drumoak in "The Statistical Accounts of Scotland", I found the statement that the parish had never kept death records, so if that was the case elsewhere .....

Thanks again.

[unklee]

Hi everyone who has helped me on this thread, thank you very much. You have all been very helpful.

I have one more request please.

I live in Australia and I want to check out the Banchory Ternan Kirk Session records for 1824, to see any discussion of the paternity of John Skinner. I have found the records at the NAS website (see this webpage and this one. But they are not actually available for viewing online, only at the NAS.

There are a bunch of researchers linked on the NAS site, so I have written to one of them at random to see if she will do this small task for me. But I also wondered if there is anyone on this forum who regularly visits the NAS search rooms please, who could find and copy the relevant section? I would of course be willing to pay. Or can anyone recommend a professional researcher who could do this task for me please?

Thanks.

[unklee]

Annette,

Since Elizabeth Taylor/Skinner died in 1855 I had a look at her death entry as I knew it would list her children. The death entry shows she also had a son John age 52 so born about 1803 and still living in 1855.

Where did you find this record please? I haven't been able to find it. (I think I still have a lot to learn!)

Thanks.