Unable to find dc for Isaac RIEMER 1896

[casserole]

WilmaB,

It is some years now since I got the information about the burials of Isaac's children so I stand corrected. Thank you for letting me know.


Lesley,

I misunderstood about wildcarding. I thought that the search would be R* etc. It's good to know that all those possibilities have been covered.

Many thanks to everyone who has helped out with the search for Isaac. I appreciate the time and effort that has gone into the search.

Carole

[Montrose Budie]

Hi Carole

If his death has been misindexed then the mistake must surely be of the first initial.

I think those of us who have been off wildcarding have covered that possibility already...I know I did use a leading wildcard, with only about one other letter - you can't enter fewer than 2 actual letters...
David (Montrose Budie) states in his post that he has already tried a leading wildcard too, so any letter as the first letter has already been covered.

Exactly, i.e. ScotlandsPeople, unlike most other sites, allows a leading wildcard.

If his name was William or John this would have been a big problem, but a first name Isaac is fairly unusual, which is a good thing as it prevents potentially hundreds of results being returned, none of which are the correct person! (I've tried wildcards in Isaac too, to try to cover any creative spellings!!)

An 'I' can often be read as a 'J', - and I've checked that out, never mind other possible representations of 'Isaac', - all of which negative outcomes would lead me to believe that the probability is that he died outside of Scotland..........

mb

[casserole]

Thank you mb.

Mmmmm. I think I am going back to my original idea, as you have, that he died out of Scotland. Listers have tried just about everything as far as I can tell. I got excited about Lesley's suggestion of contacting GROS and I think that I will go ahead with that and then a word with the Scottish Jewish Archives. Then it's across the border and over the seas. Shudders, needle in a haystack.

Carole

[deano]

Hello All,

Its quite possible the index for Isaac's, death was omitted from the database by human error, its happened on the usual occassion on Scotlandspeople, in the past.

The gross option would be the best move.

Regards,
Jonn.

[Currie]

I’m inclined to think that all we can positively conclude is that a death registration for him hasn’t been found using the search facility at SP. That’s not to say there was or wasn’t a Scottish death, but to speculate on an overseas death we would have to think carefully about several things, namely, that he would have left his family behind in destitute circumstances, that he had recently been suffering from a potentially life threatening illness and that the evidence is that he had absolutely no funds of any description with which to finance such a journey.

Why did they come to Scotland in the first place, was it because of events in Europe at the time. Both were Jewish, one born in Lithuania, the other in Russia, married in Germany, next they’re in Scotland. What was his work, did he travel to Scotland because he had skills that were in demand there or were they refugees. There were anti-Jewish pogroms, nightmare situations, often promoted by the State, in those parts of Europe during the period in question.

If he did disappear overseas why would he have gone, would it have been to see his family back home. If the situation there had not improved would it have been a desirable place to visit. If they were refugees that fact would reduce substantially the likelihood that he went off to visit family in his country of origin.

Just some thoughts,

All the best,
Alan

[casserole]

Hello Alan,

Yes, it does seem unlikely that Isaac went off on his own whilst being so unfit.

I have been told that they did come to leave Germany because of the pogroms but whether they intended to go on to America I don't know. They both MAY have been born in Lithuania but the only 'place of birth' information I have for Isaac is from the 1891 census which gives both he and his wife as being born Russia. I have the Declaration of Nationality dated 1916 for Jane/Jeanie which gives her birthplace as Taurage, Kovno, Lithuania.

My feeling is that he probably didn't go back to Germany but may have had family/friends in England, Ireland or America. A voyage to America would have been costly which would put that at the bottom of the list. I've searched the BMD index for England and Wales for around the time I think he died but nothing.

I have just had a reply from GROS re my query about whether Isaac's death might not have been registered. I will post it separately.

Thank you for your thoughts, Alan, they have been extremely helpful

Regards
Carole

[casserole]

Hello everybody,

Below is the reply I have received from GROS re my query about whether Isaac's death might not have been registered.

Carole
-------------------------------------

I have checked Gorbals (district 644/12) from 1894 (when Isaac signs son
Jacob's death certificate) to 1901 when his wife Jean is listed as a
widow on the 1901 census (under Rimmer) and found no trace. I have
also checked all Scotland from 1891 when he is aged 32 (under Rennier)
in the 1891 census right up just incase he left his wife and she just
listed herself as a widow and found no trace.

I also checked January 1896 in Gorbals deaths and found nothing for
Isaac's death. Could it be that he had left Scotland for a time and
died elsewhere - perhaps visiting relations? I am sorry we have been
unable to help.

[LesleyB]

Hi Carole

Good to hear you have heard back from GROS so promptly. It does begin to look like he may not have died in Scotland, but it seems so unlikely that he would have gone very far with bronchitis whcih was so disabling that he could not work and was, as a result, in receipt of poor relief. Could he have been on his way to some sanatorium or spa or somewhere similar to try to get better? But then again, you'd think you would have needed some money to attend a place like that....

A real mystery...

Best wishes
Lesley

[casserole]

Hello Lesley,

I'm so sad about the whole thing especially since you all put so much work into trying to find him. I'm now resigned to the fact that it is probably going to take me a long time to find him if at all. I'll always keep looking as I can't believe that there is no information about him out there.

I've just written to the Mitchell library to ask what the numbers are beside the entries in the Poor Relief Application. They all begin with S and have five or six numbers following. Quite a few of the entries have them. They might correspond to entries in another document and I was wondering if they might hold a bit more on Isaac. A very long shot I feel but at least it will be something to eliminate.

Thank you to everyone who has helped in the search for Isaac and for all the ideas. I'll be eternally grateful

All the best,
Carole

[Montrose Budie]

snipped.........

I have been told that they did come to leave Germany because of the pogroms but whether they intended to go on to America I don't know. They both MAY have been born in Lithuania but the only 'place of birth' information I have for Isaac is from the 1891 census which gives both he and his wife as being born Russia. I have the Declaration of Nationality dated 1916 for Jane/Jeanie which gives her birthplace as Taurage, Kovno, Lithuania.

....snipped.....

Carole

As Lithuania (and other Baltic states) were part of the Russian Empire, their 'official' nationality was Russian. I seem to recall that there was some guidance given to enumerators covering this and similar situations, e.g. Finland was a Russian Grand Duchy!

[A project I want to do one of these days is further research in the Glengarnock area around the 1890s where numerous Lithuanians were 'imported' by the owners of steel mills as the locals were getting uppity and demanding ever better conditions and ever more money. In the relevant censuses their place of birth is sometimes Russia, sometimes 'Russia (Lithuanian Jew)'.

For fairly obvious reasons in terms of the difficulty of the orthography of their names, sur- and given, they often adopted Scottish names!, e.g. 'Jimmy SMITH'!, but this factor is unlikely to have applied in the case of REIMER.]

snipped.........

My feeling is that he probably didn't go back to Germany but may have had family/friends in England, Ireland or America. A voyage to America would have been costly which would put that at the bottom of the list. I've searched the BMD index for England and Wales for around the time I think he died but nothing.

He certainly doesn't appear in the outward shipping lists at www.findmypast.com . There's plenty matches on the name and variants but nothing that matches on age and date, and no Isaac. Unfortunately, these records do not includes ships going to Europe.


I've doublechecked the FreeBMD website at http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/ , which has plenty matches for the surnames REIMER, RIEMER and even more for RENNER but nary an Isaac among them. You'd need to delve further on the FreeBMD website to check the coverage for 1896 and thenabouts; as it may not yet be complete; never mind you've already checked the original GRO indexes.

I've just written to the Mitchell library to ask what the numbers are beside the entries in the Poor Relief Application. They all begin with S and have five or six numbers following. Quite a few of the entries have them. They might correspond to entries in another document and I was wondering if they might hold a bit more on Isaac. A very long shot I feel but at least it will be something to eliminate.

I believe that these may well be cross references to other documents.


So where does that leave us?, - unregistered in Scotland, however unlikely that is [but wouldn't there have been a Jewish record if the family were active members of a synogogue?......]; or died in Ireland or back in continental Europe, - perchance a parent or other relative died and he had to go back and handle affairs?...........

Orraverybest

mb