Pre 1855

[kilconquhar]

Hi all

Its my first post on this forum.

I'm trying to trace Gourlay descendants from Fife and have also tried
( http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... 491.0.html )

I'm stuggling with events prior to 1855 and wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction

I have a death certificate in 1866 in Kilconquhar for James Gourlay (lets call him James 2) who is shown as 63.

I cant find James's 2 birth - Can you help ?

His parents on his death certificate are shown as James (lets call him James 1) and Christina (Nee Pearson) who I believe married 8 th Dec 1797 in Ceres

I have James 1 & Christina as 66 & 70 years old on 1841 census
I then have James 1 as 80 on 1851 census
I believe therefore Christina may have died between 1841 and 1851

I cant find the death of James 1 which I believe is between 1851 and 1861 ( if after 1855 should confirm his parents ??)

They may be James and Margaret Lyell or could be Thomas and Margaret Webster

Can anyone help or give pointers on pre 1855 events and how you confirm you have the correct people as detail present on certificates post 1855 are missing

Thanks
John

[AndrewP]

Hi John,

Welcome to TalkingScot.

One source that may be worth trying is the Pre-1855 Fife Death Index, published on CD-ROM by Fife Family History Society.

http://www.fifefhs.org/deaths.htm

A description of the index is given as:

Although the title of the CD-Rom is pre 1855 Deaths, there are some entries included that occurred after this date. For obvious reasons it does not include every death that took place before 1855, as in many parishes, records did not begin until the 1600's. We have explored over 50 different sources, though the original project only required deaths which were shown on the OPR's. Sources used include Kirk Session records, Monumental Inscriptions, Lair Registers, Wills, Testaments, Newspapers etc.

All the best,

AndrewP

[LesleyB]

Hi John
Welcome to Talking Scot

Also worth having a look at these:
Deaths in OPRs
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4501

Monumental Inscriptions & related web links
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10343

IGI and the OPRs - What Will You Find?
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4148

Deaths before 1855 – Monumental Inscriptions
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4556

Not sure where you are based, but if you are in Fife, Cupar Library has the Fife Monumental Inscription books (Mitchell & Mitchell) and the Fife Death Index. I expect Kirkcaldy Library may also have these.

Best wishes
Lesley

[LesleyB]

Hi again,

The marriage you mentioned turns up in two OPRs according to the IGI at www.familysearch.org : (note that the bride is listed as Christian)

1. JAMES GOURLAY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 19 NOV 1797 Cameron, Fife, Scotland

2. JAMES GOURLAY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 08 DEC 1797 Ceres, Fife, Scotland

This suggests than one of them living in Cameron, the other in Ceres at the time of the marriage.
Both the above are extracts, so you should be able to find the original entries either on Scotlands People (link at top of page) or on microflm at NRH, The Scottish Genealogy Society, both in Edinburgh, or at Cupar Library as they have the microfilms for all of Fife.

Best wishes
Lesley

[LesleyB]

And again

I have James 1 & Christina as 66 & 70 years old on 1841 census
I then have James 1 as 80 on 1851 census

Where were they living for these census entries?

Best wishes
Lesley

[kilconquhar]

Lesley

Many thanks for your prompt response

I saw the two marriage dates on Scotlands people
I believe the first is the Banns in Christian's parish (Cameron) and the second date to be the actual Marriage in James's parish of Ceres

The census entries are for Kilconquhar

Regards
John

[Russell]

Hi John

I would be surprised if the marriage took place in the groom's parish. Remember that Banns had to be posted in both parishes on three occasions prior to the marriage so often OPR entries will give the dates the Banns were announced and may not even record the marriage date at all. The last date you have is most likely the date on which his last Banns were called. There was no standard instruction to ministers about Banns being called on 'consecutive Sundays' and they could even be called twice on the same day - at morning & evening service.

Although the names Pearson and Gourlay seem to be fairly common in Fife I could not find a match for either James or Christian amongst the pre-1855 deaths. (there were NO Christinas at all using either surname)
The CD covers the whole of Fife with entries gleaned from newspapers and Wills & Testaments as well as Memorial Inscriptions and OPR entries so it is as close to inclusive as you'll get.
Have you considered occupational records as an alternative route to finding out more about the elusive James 1. Fife has better records than some other counties, unless he was an agricultural labourer. They moved around quite a bit and there is often no record of where they worked except at census time.

Russell

[kilconquhar]

Russell

Many thanks for your response

I have a print of the two OPRs

The Cameron Entry 19/11/1797 specifically says 'were contracted in order to marry'

The Ceres entry 8/12/1797 has slightly less detail - it simply says were married

I hope i'm not jumping to conclusions already as it appears pre 1855 events are going to be difficult enough to confirm

I've seen Christina and Christian on differing certificates and don't at the moment know which is which

James 2 Death certificate suggest unlike most of the Gourlays (who were agricultural labourers ) that James 1 was a Coal Miner

I'm not aware of the occupational records - can you please enlighten me?

Many thanks
John

[Russell]

Hi John

Once you are back beyond 1855 it is much more difficult to 'prove' relationships and a whole lot more detective work has to be done to corroborate your findings.
Even though the Fife records are generally pretty good, compared to some other areas, it often is neccessary to track down all of the siblings and use the naming pattern to establish whether you have the correct parents.
What I was suggesting about occupational records was, in many villages and towns people were listed in local directories e.g.Pigott's, where merchants, fishermen, local dignitaries, grocers etc were all identifed by name.
I have tracked down some of my Cellardyke relatives by the fishing boats they crewed on.
Fife miners were often traced through records of pit accidents in which they were involved. Sometimes a drastic change in occupation could indicate that they were no longer fit to hew coal and took up surface work or alternative labouring jobs.

On the question of names - names changed over years.
Christian gradually evolved to become Christine or Christina.
Euphemia was originally Euphan.
Grizzell became Grace by the early to mid 1800's.
You may often find an ancestor starting out with the older spelling but modifying it on later documants.
Jean is probably one of the more difficult names to follow as it can be found as Jane/Jeanie/Jeannie/Jeaney/Janet.
Have you found a female Nicholas or Stewart yet I have

It makes the searching that bit more difficult but the satisfaction in cracking a problem is all the more intense when you manage it

Russell

[ChristineW]

Hi John

On the Fife Pre-1855 Death Index there are only two James Gourlays listed in your time period. Only one entry could be your James.

The first is James GOURLY, Abode: Kilconquhar, Date of Burial: 27 August, 1853. (The source credited for this information is Fife Council, Lair Regist.) Unfortunately, there is absolutely no other information detailed.

(The second is James Gourlay - who died at 61YO in Abbotshall in 1856 and whose parents were John and Elizabeth. Too young for your man!)

Cheers
Christine