Can't read birth entry - Orr

[sheilago]

Hello, I've uploaded a birth entry for Margaret Orr 1838. She is the sister of my gggrandfather. I have been unable to find much on him at all so this record might help. I can't read the names after her underlined name. I presume these are the names of witnesses. The first name says John Orr (coincidentally the name of my gggrand father, but he must have been born later as Margaret is their 1st child according to this), but I can't read what comes next. Would welcome any help.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1614

Thanks, Sheila

Gallery URL added - AndrewP

[AndrewP]

Hi Sheila,

I think after Margaret's name it says John Orr Sen^r & Jun^r witnesses. Could the two Johns be William's brother and father, or possibly his father and grandfather?

All the best,

AndrewP

[sheilago]

Thanks Andrew,
It's amazing how someone else's eyes can see things!. Yes it's quite possible that Wm's father and brother were called John. Up until now I've not been able to get any further back as I can't find William's death. I cant find his son John Orr's birth either . Although the 1871 census and later censes give John's pob as Barony Glasgow ,I can find no entry and I can''t find Wm orr and Mgt Auchincloss on any censes after Mgt Orr's birth in 1838. I strongly suspect they went to Ireland for a while, as John subsequently has a son named William Jones Armstrong Orr in 1873 (Lochwinnoch) and I've found out that William Jones Armstrong was wealthy landlord in Armagh. Apparantly many Irish born Scots later lied about their pob as there was a bit of a stigma about being 'Irish'. Could be totally wrong of course, but it starts to require a bit of educated guessing once you get this far back! Thanks for your help.
Sheila

[AndrewP]

Hi Sheila,

Here is one household to consider for the 1841 census.

Glasgow, St James Parish (part of 644/1 Glasgow City)
Little Dove Hill, No 26

William Orr, 25, born Lanarkshire
Margaret Orr, 25, born Ireland
William Orr, 4, born Lanarkshire
Margaret Orr, 1, born Lanarkshire
Margaret McBryde, 60, born Ireland
Margaret Kelly, 14, born Lanarkshire

All the best,

AndrewP

[nelmit]

Thanks Andrew,

I strongly suspect they went to Ireland for a while, as John subsequently has a son named William Jones Armstrong Orr in 1873 (Lochwinnoch) and I've found out that William Jones Armstrong was wealthy landlord in Armagh. Apparantly many Irish born Scots later lied about their pob as there was a bit of a stigma about being 'Irish'. Could be totally wrong of course, but it starts to require a bit of educated guessing once you get this far back! Thanks for your help.
Sheila

There is also this William Jones Armstrong (strangely enough a wealthy estate agent) -

Dwelling: Etall Lodge
Census Place: Largs, Ayr, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203604 GRO Ref Volume 602 EnumDist 10 Page 6
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
William J. ARMSTRONG M 48 M England
Rel: Head
Occ: Land Agent Banker Magistrate In County Of Ayr
Elsie ARMSTRONG M 48 F Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Mary MC EWAN W 41 F Ayr, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Servant
Occ: Cook
Helen THOMSON U 21 F Fairlie, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Servant
Occ: Tablemaid
Helen SAVAGE U 31 F Ireland
Rel: Servant
Occ: Housemaid

regards,
Annette

[nelmit]

Hi Sheila,

I think after Margaret's name it says John Orr Sen^r & Jun^r witnesses. Could the two Johns be William's brother and father, or possibly his father and grandfather?

All the best,

AndrewP

How about brother/cousin and his son-

Piece: SCT1841/644 Place: Gorbals -Lanarkshire Enumeration District: 41
Civil Parish: Gorbals Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Gorbals
Folio: 40 Page: 11
Address: Warwick Street

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
ORR John (Snr) M 45 Muslin Manufacturer Outside Census County (1841)
ORR Agness F 35 Outside Census County (1841)
ORR John (Jnr) M 20 Outside Census County (1841)
ORR James M 14 Outside Census County (1841)
ORR Thomas M 8 Outside Census County (1841)
ORR Agness F 11 Outside Census County (1841)
ORR Mathew M 1m Lanarkshire
THOMSON Jean F 15 Female Servant England

Regards,
Annette

[sheilago]

Thanks everyone for your efforts!.
I'll have a look at all your suggestions. Andrew's 1841 census could be a possibility , but it does say on Mgt's birth that she was 1st child, where there appears to be an older Wm in this entry. Nelmit's discovery of a Scottish Wm Jones Armstrong is interesting as I know John Orr eventually gets married in Ayrshire in 1873.Nelmit's Orrs living in Gorbals are also interesting as they could be the witnesses, although John Junior would only have been about 17 in 1838 - would he have been considered old enough to be a witness?
You obviously like a challenge and my Orrs are certainly that. I had thought Orr was fairly uncommon as a name, but I've since found that actually it was quite common - and most seem to be called Wm or John, just to make life difficult for their descendants!
Thanks again, Sheila