Could witness be a midwife or a relation?

[crayspond]

Hi to all at TS,

I have been spending a bit of time in the 'twilight zone' of irish genealogy It's good to be back!
Anyway i managed to find and pay for (4 pounds!!) a birth cert of my gt grandmother. This is my McFarlane side of the family which a few people have kindly helped me with over the months.
James McFarlane (my gt gt grandfather was last seen age 16 in 1861 living with his sister Isabel Thomson and her family in Glasgow. No sightings of him until he married Jane Dickson in Belfast in 1871.
From the address in Belfast (20 Grosvenor St) i found a listing for him - James McFarlane Caulker so it is def him.
With help from some TS members we also discovered his mother Margaret McFarlane married again (no trace of cert tho - so maybe not official) to a John Stoker (census of 1861).
My questions are

Below on the bc of Ellen it has witness as Mrs Stokes - Could this be Stoker and if so could his mother be a witness. Or would Mrs stokes be the midwife?

Field Value
Parish/ District URBAN 4 Civil
Date Of Birth 03/11/1880
Date of Baptism 12/11/1880
First name ELLEN
Surname MCFARLANE
Sex Female
Denomination Civil Parish
Fathers Firstname JAMES
Fathers Surname MCFARLANE
Fathers Occupation CAULKER
Mother Firstname JANE
Mother Surname DICKSON
Witness1 Firstname MARGARET
Witness1 Surname STOKES
Witness2 Firstname
Witness2 Surname
Address1 20 GROSVENOR ST
Address2 Belfast
Address3 Belfast
Address4
Misc
DEPUTY REGISTRAR A HEWITT

Also, in the 1877 street directory in Belfast there is a James McFarlane occ Porter living in 24 Grosvenor St. If it was him would he have started a career in iron caulking in 1880 aged 35? would that have been common. He turns up in 1883 in Glasgow where the last child was born. Occ Iron caulker.

Anyway thanks for reading this -

Ailsa

[Montrose Budie]

You need someone with detailed knowledge of the registration system in Ireland, failing that, in England & Wales as I believe the two systems are very similar, except that I get confused when I see the term 'witness' used as opposed to 'informant', and that there could be two 'witnesses' for a birth.

I'm also intrigued by the format of the names of the parents. In Scotland the form 'James MCFARLANE and Jane DICKSON' would mean that they weren't married. In Scotland, the form for a married couple is 'James McFARLANE and Jane McFARLANE M.S. DICKSON' (along with the 'Scottish' extra of the date and place of the marriage!) although you appear to have knowledge of their marriage in 1871 ..........

Is it possible to post an image of this birth certificate?


That written, I'd be surprised if the position with respect to informants was different from that in Scotland.

In Scotland, anyone could be the informant as long as 'they had knowledge of the event'. Obviously a close family member or a member of the medical professions was preferred by the registrar but he had no power to demand such. BTW, it was originally proposed that the child should be brought along when the registration took place!

mb

[LesleyB]

Hi Ailsa
I think you'd need to see the original to know if it was Stokes or Stoker.

I suspect what you have here is a trancription of the document from one of the pay-per-view Irish sites. You know the name you are looking for, but the transciber maybe saw it differently.

From the small amount of Irish certs I've seen, they very much seem to be based on the English style of certs.

Best wishes
Lesley

[LesleyB]

For info:

Ireland Civil Registration

BIRTHS
Persons required to register births were:
1. the parent or parents
2. in the event of death or inability of the parent or parents, the occupier of the house or tenement in which the child was born or
3. the nurse; or
4. any person present at the birth of the child

The information they were required to supply was ;
1. the date and place of birth of the child
2. the name (if any)
3. the sex
4. the name, surname and dwelling place of the father
5. the name, surname, maiden surname and dwelling place of the mother
6. the rank, profession or occupation of the father

The informant and the registrar were both required to sign each entry, which was also to include the date of registration, the residence of the informant and his or her qualification, for example "present at birth". Notice of the birth was to be given to the registrar within twenty one days and full details within three months. It was not obligatory to register a first name for the child. The very small proportion for whom no first name was supplied appear in the indexes as, for example, "Kelly (male)" or "Murphy (female)"

ref; "Tracing Your Irish Ancestors" John Grenham, pub. Gill & Macmillan Ltd

- again, with a transcription you are not able to see the original wording, so it is unclear if the mother's surname was given "as is" or as a maiden surname and has been transcribed to fit the database fields.


Best wishes
Lesley

[crayspond]

I have uploaded the census of 1861 which has John and Margaret Stoker - I am i alone in thinking it may be Stokes ?

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1767

Ailsa

Gallery URL added - AndrewP

[LesleyB]

Hi Ailsa
the ending of surname "McInnes" further up the page suggests the surname may end the same way, so Stokes? But the ending "r " on the word "Lodger" is a very similar shape!

Best wishes
Lesley

[AndrewP]

Hi Ailsa,

Upon looking at the other names on that page, the enumerator's r's and s's are very similar, so in my mind it could equally be Stokes or Stoker.

All the best,

AndrewP

[LesleyB]

Hi Ailsa

I think you'd need to see the original to know if it was Stokes or Stoker.

Just incase there is confusion here, when I mentioned "the original", I meant the original birth entry.

Best wishes
Lesley

[nelmit]

Like Andrew says it could easily be either but to me it's too much of a coincidence and I for one am convinced it's your Margaret who registered the birth.

Regards,
Annette

[crayspond]

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies - i did think it was her myself but it is good to put it out there and get TS buddies thoughts on the matter.
It could be possible that they moved en masse to Belfast after 1861 as i can't seem to find any of them on the 1871 census. John Stoker or Stokes was born in Down so that is one reason to go there.
It still niggles me what happened after she was widowed with 6 kids in 1856 it must have been tough.

Ailsa