Great grandmother's real name problem

[raymonda63]

Firstly, thanks for having me on such an informative and helpful forum and site.
I have been having some success with researching my parent's lineage online but have hit a wall with my grandfather's mother on my mother's side.

MY great grandmother gave birth to my grandfather September 15 1904 in Edinburgh at Elsie Inglis Hospital in Royal Park Place .
On the birth certificate the birth is illegitimate and mother's name is given as Jane White, Coffee Warehousewoman. No father is mentioned and Jane is the Informant. No RCE.
My grandfather James Crawford White has his mother's surname as Elder on his death certificate.
On my grandfather's marriage certificate of 1924 his mother is called Jean White m.s. Elder and the father is named as Alexander White, a Dock Labourer. I cannot find this marriage if there was one.
I have checked Census for 1901 but there are a lot of Elders and Whites and I don't know which areas to look in. Its expensive to hit all these guesses on Scotland'sPeople. I need a strong lead and I am not finding one. The tea and Coffee warehouses were in the Leith area as far as I know and grandfather seems to have made his way into the city centre by the time of his marriage with him apparently being raised by unrelated families.
Apart from the non existent RCE I wonder if there is any way to counter check the birth registration or marriage lines for accuracy?
Also why was this Jane or Jean called White on the birth certificate?
Its pretty much dried up here while I wait for some elderly relatives to get in touch with any vague clues.

Any help appreciated and more details can be provided if required.

[emanday]

Hi raymonda63,

Welcome to Talking Scot.

A woman didn't have to be unmarried for her child to be listed as illegitimate. If conception occurred at a time when the husband was away and the registrar was made aware of this, then that is how the child would be registered.

Have you tried looking for a marriage in the years preceeding the birth.

The fact that his father IS named on his MC could indicate that "all was forgiven" and Alexander later accepted him.

It's worth looking, I would think.

[nelmit]

Hello and welcome to Talking Scot.

What was Jane's usual address when she gave birth to James?

Regards,
Annette

[JustJean]

Firstly, thanks for having me on such an informative and helpful forum and site.
I have been having some success with researching my parent's lineage online but have hit a wall with my grandfather's mother on my mother's side.

MY great grandmother gave birth to my grandfather September 15 1904 in Edinburgh at Elsie Inglis Hospital in Royal Park Place .
On the birth certificate the birth is illegitimate and mother's name is given as Jane White, Coffee Warehousewoman. No father is mentioned and Jane is the Informant. No RCE.
My grandfather James Crawford White has his mother's surname as Elder on his death certificate.
On my grandfather's marriage certificate of 1924 his mother is called Jean White m.s. Elder and the father is named as Alexander White, a Dock Labourer. I cannot find this marriage if there was one.
I have checked Census for 1901 but there are a lot of Elders and Whites and I don't know which areas to look in. Its expensive to hit all these guesses on Scotland'sPeople. I need a strong lead and I am not finding one. The tea and Coffee warehouses were in the Leith area as far as I know and grandfather seems to have made his way into the city centre by the time of his marriage with him apparently being raised by unrelated families.
Apart from the non existent RCE I wonder if there is any way to counter check the birth registration or marriage lines for accuracy?
Also why was this Jane or Jean called White on the birth certificate?
Its pretty much dried up here while I wait for some elderly relatives to get in touch with any vague clues.

Any help appreciated and more details can be provided if required.

Wow this is a tough one. Can I just clarify a couple of points....

1. Is Jean/Jane shown as dec'd on your grandfather's DC?....and also is information given on Alexander White there too like on the MC....or is it just the mum that is listed?

2. Does the middle name of CRAWFORD have any significance.....ie did your grandfather use it in naming his own children or anything?...While we're at it what names did your grandfather use for his own children?

3. You state that you believe your grandfather was raised by non-related families. Where did you get this info from? Any idea of what their names were and where they lived?

4. Do you think your grandfather was Roman Catholic by birth or was his wife the one who would have held out for the Roman Catholic wedding?

Like you say....not seeing a strong lead yet but thinking.....

Best wishes
Jean

[raymonda63]

Thanks all.

emanday
That is a line I never pursued, that someone outwith a marriage may be involved.

Annette
There is no address for Jane on the BC. The only address is 1 Royal Park Place which I am assuming refers to Elsie Inglis Maternity Hospital but this may be a mistake as the Hospital is listed as at nearby Spring Gardens.

Jean
1. Neither Jean nor Alexander White are shown as deceased on the MC. Jean as Jane is the only parent named on the BC. Alex on MC is named as Dock Labourer.
2. Crawford means nothing. It just makes existing family members laugh a bit as they only found out when he died. It is not on his MC. One lead is he named a son Fred and apparently he or my aunts had an "Uncle" Fred White. I have no idea what age he may have been at any time. No Alex or Jeans in his family.
3. The Taylors of Leith were apparently close to my grandfather. All info is from existing relatives born post 1930
4. Grandfather was reputedly non religious. Grandmother and her siblings must have gone for the Catholic wedding but good question. They were all in their teens with a recently deceased father and mother and my grandfather was already living in the same address as my grandmother.

Tangled webs (and I am holding back asking about getting farther back than 1760 on my dad's side in Borthwick!)

[JustJean]

Thanks for the further input...

Actually it was your grandfather's Death Cert I was wondering about....I've seen the Birth and Marriage data. Does his Death also list Alexander White as father?...Does the Death indicate parents as deceased? I'm trying to get a handle on whether your grandads info was basically copied forward from his marriage info or did the informant perhaps have some first hand knowledge of their own.

I had my eye on a Jane ELDER who was living in Leith with parents and siblings in 1901. She didn't marry until age 39 in 1916 and that was in the Free Church. She dies in 1944. Her father was a spirit warehouseman who dies in Feb 1903 and had a first name of Alexander. The odd bit (and this means absolutely nothing yet other than the oddity of it) is the address she is at in the 1901 census is the same address a young Alexander White marries at in 1910....but in 1901 that same Alexander White is not living there. So basically the Jane I have my eye on might have lived at the same address as the Alexander White for a short time but it would have been after the 1901 census and before Feb 1903.

About the only way I can see that you could ever prove anything there is to compare the signature of the Jane who signed your grandads BC to the Jane Elder who marries in 1916....and since marriage records do not contain an original signature it won't be easily accomplished. The signature does exist but it's on the original marriage schedule document that is not accessible online or at NRH. There are special circumstances a copy can be obtained under but not sure you've got enough to go on yet to make that kind of request.

Still thinking....

Jean

[raymonda63]

Thanks jean

I think I saw this family with the spirit warehouseman. Doesn't it state the eldest daughter is a tobacco roller?
Strangely, Bowling Green Street is where my grandfather's favourite daughter lived after she married and they would drink and sing in the local pub there!

[LesleyB]

Hi Ray (hope you don't mind the shortened version! )

Crawford means nothing.

Very rarely do names mean nothing. They usually have some connection to something. Just what that something is may take some working out, or the answer may never be known to us, but there was some reason for it, I'm almost certain. Often with illegitimate children, the middle name is the arrow that points the way to the father's family. That may not be the case here, but it will have meant something to Jane/Jean.

Best wishes
Lesley

[raymonda63]

Ok Jean that looks like a good line of enquiry...
Why is this Jane the mother called White in 1904? I can't seem to find a Jane Elder/White marriage as a reason and the MC refutes her being a born White with the Elder maiden surname declared.
Who would have provided this parentage information? My grandfather himself? He must have had other relatives.

Lesley
Yes it must mean something it just doesn't seem to register with elderly relatives I speak to.

I am intrigued now by the address on the birth certificate. It seems that was a tenement block of flats back then.

[JustJean]

Don't worry you've not missed anything....there is no marriage of a WHITE to an ELDER of any combination that fits your scenario and yes the Jane Elder I had my eye on is the tobacco roller in 1901.

Why Jane named herself as WHITE on the BC info? Well....she may have been married but I think if she were and the husband was not around she would never have permitted her son to be labeled illegitimate. And if she wasn't married at all you'd think she'd just use her ordinary name. Now I've seen women who have illegitmate children who were illegitimate themselves and that can get complicated. If this Jane had been born illegitimate then she might have been born with one name and raised with another so that she might have been known by ELDER or WHITE. I know this does not account for the fact that by the time your grandad was a grown young man he seemed to think his father and mother were still living and were married. Well I've seen parents named as married when they aren't, weren't, and never were. Basically there is nothing concrete I'd dare take from that BC!!!!

To answer your question...yes your grandad would have provided the parent info himself at the time of his marriage.

As Lesley points out....those middle names especially in the circumstanc of illegitimate births 9 times out of 10 are a pointer to the real father's surname. CRAWFORD might just have been the real father but again purely conjecture.

There is one more piece of evidence that unfortunatley you're going to have to wait on for a few more years but the 1911 Scottish census might be very interesting to see where your 7 year old grandad is and who he's living with and what the relationship is. Since his BC is freely available then there is no indication he was formally adopted by another family. If he had been I believe the original BC would not be publicly available.

Best wishes
Jean