Cause of Death - White Rose

[tcorbet]

I have a very clear OPR Death notice for a female relative who died in her late sixties in Edinburgh, who, as far as my other research indicates, lived a fairly comfortable life. The Cause of Death is listed as "White Rose". I have looked at every well-known list of 'ancient medical terms' and spent a couple of hours reading some of the strangest medical journals published in the U.K. in the nineteenth century, but I cannot find anything that tells what that term would have meant, in plain English, in modern times.

Unfortunately, I know of no way to contrive a ScotlandsPeople query that would let me try to locate other records showing that as a Cause of Death, so after three days, I've made no progress. Are there any good 'history of medicine' folks on line? I am not concerned if someone has to tell me that "White Rose" was used as a euphemism for the ugliest social disease known to mankind -- what I need is truthful facts. If no one knows, can anyone suggest what sort of government or private institution in Scotland I might write to, to get a precise definition?

Thanks for whatever suggestions anyone might have.

[LesleyB]

Hi tcorbet
and welcome to Talking Scot

Can you maybe give us a name and date for the death so that folks can have a look at it if they wish, or you may wish to upload the image to a site such as http://www.photobucket.com then post the URL for the image in your post.

I've never come across mention of "white rose" so would be interested to see it written before we are off on a hunt for its meaning.

Best wishes
Lesley

[tcorbet]

I'm not acquainted with the 'free photo posting' cite for which you kindly gave me a URL, but after two minutes I could not connect with Firefox. After another two minutes via an IE8 session, i finally got connected to some very ugly page, so I guess I will have to try your other suggestion.

The heading from the page by which the record was retrieved is:

08/10/1845 Corbet, Jane (O.P.R. Deaths 685/02 0071 St Cuthbert's)

I only have the resulting jpg, another family member contrived the query that returns that result. But if it is inconvenient or costly to ask others to perform the query, I can assure you that there is absolutely nothing tricky about what you will see. The form has all the standard columns with very legible entries showing that Jane Annan, Wife of Thomas Corbet died at the age of 56 where the Place of Death was 2 Canon Place and the Cause of Death was "White Rose" -- written exactly that way -- two separate words with initial caps.

Thanks for your assistance.

[LesleyB]

Hi

There should not be any major problems with Photobucket - it is a well know image site.

I've downloaded the image from SP and the uploaded OPR page containing the death can be viewed here
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr34 ... Corbet.jpg
Jane is the last entry on the page. As you stated, the writing is clear.

I've not seen this as a cause of death before - an interesting entry. Only thing that immediately springs to mind is any connection there may be with "ring a ring o' roses" which is supposed to be a rhyme associated with the plague according to some sources. No mention of anything white there though......

Best wishes
Lesley

[garibaldired]

TB was sometimes known as the white plague.
Just a thought!

Best wishes,
Meg

[Currie]

Hello tcorbet,

I’m clutching at straws here. OPR’s aren’t death registrations and I suppose that any sort of unqualified opinion as to cause of death or terminology could turn up there.

This book mentions white rose as having medical astringent properties and appears to have been used for that purpose since the time of Shakespeare.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=o-g ... 22&f=false

“Rosa Alba. The White Rose. The flowers of this species possess similar but inferior virtues to those of the damask. They are directed in some officinal preparations” http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uWN ... q=&f=false

And used as a purgative according to this book from 1821.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=wAM ... brr=1&cd=1#

Maybe she overdid it?

All the best,
Alan

[marypryde]

I have seen articles where the white rose is related to the term "sub rosa." This is way out there, but could "White Rose" be code for "It's a secret"?

My all time favorite OPR cause of death is "Wore Out." Good luck to all in this endeavor,
Mary Ellen

[tcorbet]

Following up on Currie's post.

You have probably helped me in one key respect. I have been extrapolating from Death Certificates to these Parish records, which, I guess is fundamentally wrong. On the other hand, in Death Certificates that I get from 19th century Missouri, for example, I am accustomed to seeing archaic, but precise, terms shown for Cause of Death. For most of the comparable recordings of Cause of Death, I noticed in Scotland, the same, precise, often Latin, terms were frequently used. That is what caused me to believe that White Rose was written by someone communicating a true medical cause of death.

Is a better view of that Column in O.P.R. records that any family member or any person at the church could pretty much put anything there?

[LesleyB]

Hi tcorbet

Is a better view of that Column in O.P.R. records that any family member or any person at the church could pretty much put anything there?

As far as I'm aware the Session Clerk would have written up the info. Whether he was responsible for interpreting the cause of death or merely wrote what he was told by relatives or friends of the deceased, I really would not know. I expect it varied from parish to parish, but at that time as far as I'm aware there was no requirement for any qualified medial practictioner to state the cause of death for insertion in the OPR.

The OPR example you have there gives quite a good amount of information in an ordered fashion and is not really typical of OPRs (or the ones I've seen at any rate, but probably most are earlier than this date) - many/most that I have seen give far less detail and are nowhere near as organised! Clearly the session clerk at St Cuthberts was a neat, orderly chap who took some pride in his work. Which kind of makes you think he'd not just put any old thing in the cause of death column....

Best wishes
Lesley

[Russell]

Hi tcorbet

I'm usually fairly well up on medical terms, including some of the more archaic but this is one I have never come across.

You have the record as a jpeg. If you would like to e-mail it to me I'll see whether I can figure it out. We don't appear to have a 'head scratching' Smilie. It would be useful here.

My only guess so far is Leukoplakia. Alone it wouldn't generally be a cause of morbidity unless other problems were present but it comes under the category of "FEMALE CONDITIONS" not to be spoken of in polite circles.

Russell