Informant name

[crayspond]

Hi to all at TS,

I have recently downloaded a death cert from SP for a Margaret Bell Widow of Malcolm Bell who was the sister of Peter Hardy who was my gggg father . I can read all of the certificate except the informants identity. She died at West High St Kirkintilloch on 26/3/1881 age 56 of chronic bronchitis and general debility. Informant box says John Downie and looks like Benfice or Banface. I know she had two sons William and John but have not had much luck finding them as there are far too many .
I wondered if anyone has came across this before - maybe it was a neighbour or friend but they called it something else?
Any thoughts?

Ailsa

[AndrewP]

Hi Ailsa,

I took a look at the certificate. It is not easy to read that one, but I think it says 'Occupier'. I have come across that term before.

If you need to be more certain, you can click on the link on the download page and tell SP that the certificate is difficult to read. They should then re-scan from the register it and send you a copy by e-mail.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Montrose Budie]

The heading for this column is "Signature and Qualification of the Informant, and Address if out of the House in which the Death occurred".

So we know that John DOWNIE was "Present", i.e. living in the house at the time of death (but not necessarily present at the death itself.

All logic would first suggest that John was a relative of some sort, but, for the moment I can't come up with anything that fits; or even "Lodger", and similar .......... I don't think that the first letter is a "B", - see "Builder" elsewhere on the page.

.........
......
....

Later, - it's actually "Occupier", the difficulty being the way this Registrar formed his lower case "p".

This infers that Margaret BELL was a lodger at this address, so probably not related.

mb

[crayspond]

Many thanks for the quick replies - I thought it was something like that but for the life of me i could not see anything but a B! Now that you say Occupier i can see the O running into the two c's . I was fixed on the B from Bronchitis.
The main person who i am finding it hard to find a death cert is Margaret's mother Janet Gilfillan - I have narrowed her death down to between having her last child Janet born 1828 in New Kilpatrick to when John Hardie her husband is on the 1851 census with daughter Janet.I am assuming she died between these dates.
The OPRs (marriage) 1813 in Strathblane has no mention of her mother and father.
Below is what i came up with

You searched for: Surname: "HARD**"; Surname Option: Wildcard; Forename: "JANET"; Forename Option: Prefix; Sex: "Any"; Date From: 01 January 1827; Date To: 31 December 1854;

1 22/10/1846 HARDAY JANET F LAUDER /BERWICK 748/00 0030 0230
2 24/07/1827 HARDIE JANET GEO HARDIE F MERTOUN /BERWICK 751/00 0020 0106
3 13/10/1828 HARDIE JANET F AIRTH /STIRLING 469/00 0050 0157
4 01/11/1828 HARDIE JANET BROWN / JAMES BROWN F PITTENWEEM /FIFE 452/00 0040 0399
5 02/01/1831 HARDIE JANET F FALKIRK /STIRLING 479/00 0130 0437
6 22/01/1833 HARDIE JANET F BO'NESS /WEST LOTHIAN 663/00 0060 0341
7 08/11/1834 HARDIE JANET F BO'NESS /WEST LOTHIAN 663/00 0060 0346
8 21/04/1835 HARDIE JANET F EDINBURGH EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/01 1000 0330
9 19/07/1835 HARDIE JANET F FALKLAND /FIFE 428/00 0030 0241
10 11/08/1835 HARDIE JANET ROBERTSON / ALEXANDER HARDIE F DUNDEE DUNDEE CITY CITY/ANGUS 282/00 0270 0012
11 23/03/1836 HARDIE JANET F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0540 0147
12 01/11/1837 HARDIE JANET F KINLOSS /MORAY 138/00 0020 0209
13 03/03/1838 HARDIE JANET KERR / JOHN KERR F LONGFORGAN DUNDEE CITY CITY/PERTH 377/00 0040 0359
14 04/02/1839 HARDIE JANET RITCHIE / ROBERT HARDIE F ST CUTHBERT'S EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/02 0500 0494
15 21/07/1839 HARDIE JANET F FALKIRK /STIRLING 479/00 0130 0532
16 06/08/1840 HARDIE JANET JAMES HARDIE F DUNDEE DUNDEE CITY CITY/ANGUS 282/00 0270 0232
17 01/11/1841 HARDIE JANET F ST CUTHBERT'S EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/02 0510 0086
18 17/03/1842 HARDIE JANET ROBERT HARDIE F ST CUTHBERT'S EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/02 0510 0098
19 13/08/1843 HARDIE JANET ALEXR HARDIE F ST CUTHBERT'S EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/02 0510 0163
20 02/04/1846 HARDIE JANET F BO'NESS /WEST LOTHIAN 663/00 0060 0375
21 23/11/1846 HARDIE JANET BUNTEN / JAMES BUNTEN F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0570 0021
22 26/11/1846 HARDIE JANET CRAIG / WALTER HARDIE F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0570 0021
23 04/02/1847 HARDIE JANET MCDOUGAL / JOHN HARDIE F DUNDEE DUNDEE CITY CITY/ANGUS 282/00 0280 0136
24 05/05/1847 HARDIE JANET F ST CUTHBERT'S EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/02 0580 0010
25 27/07/1847 HARDIE JANET PATTERSON / THO PATTERSON F KEMBACK /FIFE 433/00 0020 0134

Of the above i only tried no 17 - not her - I couldn't see any clues to try any others - I then searched under the following thinking it may be under her maiden name

You searched for: Surname: "GILFILLAN"; Surname Option: Wildcard; Forename: "JANET"; Forename Option: Prefix; Sex: "Any"; Date From: 01 January 1780; Date To: 31 December 1854;




1 09/02/1781 GILFILLAN JANET WILLIAM GILFILLAN F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0590 0080
2 16/12/1782 GILFILLAN JANET SMITH / JAS SMITH F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0590 0115
3 10/06/1786 GILFILLAN JANET JENETTER / ALEXR JENETTER F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0510 0090
4 18/09/1790 GILFILLAN JANET F AIRTH /STIRLING 469/00 0040 0200
5 06/07/1803 GILFILLAN JANET F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0640 0115
6 29/01/1806 GILFILLAN JANET URE / ALEXR GILFILLAN F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0520 0124
7 07/11/1806 GILFILLAN JANET F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0640 0153
8 30/07/1826 GILFILLAN JANET DONALDSON / JAS GILFILLAN F ST CUTHBERT'S EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/02 0550 0069
9 16/12/1835 GILFILLAN JANET CONNEL / CONNEL F INVERESK AND MUSSELBURGH /MIDLOTHIAN 689/00 0200 0133
10 01/07/1840 GILFILLAN JANET F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0670 0088
11 27/07/1841 GILFILLAN JANET GILFILLAN F GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0560 0046

Again not many clues - sorry for the long email but sometimes you can't see the woods for the trees - any search suggestions to try and narrow it down a bit would be most welcome.

Thanks
Ailsa

[nelmit]

Looks like the informant was her brother in law.

Another Ancestry transcription error but he is definitely John Downie married to Margaret's sister in law? Catherine.

1871 High St Kirkintilloch -

John Donnis 49
Catherine Donnis 50
Malcolm Donnis 19
James Donnis 16
Donald Donnis 14
Margaret Bell 48 sister in law

In 1881 his address is 28 West High St, Kirkintilloch.

Regards,
Annette

[crayspond]

Hi Annette,

How interesting, as far as i am aware there wasn't a sister called Catherine - There was Peter in 1813 (just when they married) then a John in 1815 ,Margaret (Bell) in 1822, another John in 1827 and Janet in 1828.
Do notice the gap though from 1815 till 1822 - just done a search from 1815 to 1835 and only 2 Catherines come up but not to John Hardie and Janet /Gilfillan.
I think i will have to give up on Janet Gilfillan's death cert - even if i do find it - it will be an OPR and very little will be on it anyway.
Thanks for looking for me Annette,

Ailsa

[nelmit]

Sticking my neck out here but I wonder if this might be Margaret's son John in 1861.

Donald Bell 36 born Shuaker (I think this should be Strachur) Argyll
Barbara Keith 29
Mary Bell 7
John Bell 5
Andrew Keith Bell 1
Unnamed 3 Days
John Bell 18 boarder, born Milngavie, Stirlingshire, spirit merchant's sukiman (salesman?)
Mary Swingstone 15

Regards,
Annette

[nelmit]

Hi Ailsa,

I think Catherine was Malcolm Bell's sister.

Regards,
Annette

[crayspond]

Thanks Annette,
I think you are on to something there. I had to go to bed as my brain was fuddled. That's why it is good to put a question on the board - someone (you ) can look at it with a fresh mind!
Catherine Downie (nee Bell) would be Margaret 's sister in law through her marriage to Malcolm Bell.

Do you have the address on the census where you found John Bell 18 Boarder?
I wonder if Donald is a brother of Malcolm? In my previous post i have found John on LDS born 1844 as the son of Malcolm and Margaret Bell - so the age would fit. A would be brother William is living with father John Hardie and sister Janet on the 1861 census age 14.
So mystery solved - John Downie although not related to her was her sister in law's husband - phew - we got there in the end.
Many thanks,

Ailsa

[Montrose Budie]

Looks like the informant was her brother in law.

Another Ancestry transcription error but he is definitely John Downie married to Margaret's sister in law? Catherine.

1871 High St Kirkintilloch -

John Donnis 49
Catherine Donnis 50
Malcolm Donnis 19
James Donnis 16
Donald Donnis 14
Margaret Bell 48 sister in law

In 1881 his address is 28 West High St, Kirkintilloch.

Regards,
Annette

Per FamilySearch

John Downie m. Catherine Bell
04 JUN 1843 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

Issue -

JOHN DOWNIE b. 03 AUG 1843 Kirkintilloch
WILLIAM DOWNIE b. 15 MAY 1845 Kirkintilloch
JANET DOWNIE b. 26 NOV 1849 Kirkintilloch
MALCOLM DOWNIE b. 25 DEC 1851 Kirkintilloch
JAMES DOWNIE b. 17 FEB 1854 Kirkintilloch
DONALD BELL DOWNIE b. 28 FEB 1856 Kirkintilloch
THOMAS DOWNIE b. 17 APR 1858 Kirkintilloch


Catherine's death register entry shows her parents as John BELL, Fisherman and Catherine BELL MS MORRISON.

mb