Chalmers/Chambers orphans.....

[maggie]

Hello
can anyone tell me please which poor house would be closest to Anderston Thanks to Wilma i have found the births of the 3 children of John & Margaret but since i have the death for Margaret in 1867 and John in 1869 that means there was 3 little orphans aged 8,6&4 i have had a quick look at the 1871 census and can't see them .
kind regards maggie

[WilmaM]

Maggie,
Have you considered the fact that John's death certificate was signed by his sister Elizabeth Chalmers ?


I would have though that perhaps she was caring for the children after their mother's death, and perhaps continued to.

If she then married the children may well have taken her married name.

Quite how we work that out I'm not so sure, but the IGI does give only half a dozen Elizabeth Chalmers/ Chambers marrying around that time.

[Jack]

Hi Maggie,
You'll remember this first census from last April/May on your Chalmers family.
Could this be orphan Margaret?
--
1881 Census Place: Barony, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: 38 Richard St
Source: FHL Film 0203667 GRO Ref Volume 644-10 EnumDist 57 Page 15
Margaret MC NAUGHT U 22 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Paper Mill Worker
Christina MC NAUGHT W 43 F Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Mother
Mary MC NAUGHT U19 F Holytown, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Sister Occ: Paper Mill Worker
John MC NAUGHT U 16 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Brother Occ: Iron Moulder Apprentice
William MC NAUGHT 3 m M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son
Margaret CHALMERS U 17 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Boarder Occ: Paper Mill Worker
William COLLINS U 24 M Ireland Rel: Visitor Occ: Labourer Masons
--
And is this John?
1881 Census Place: Barony, Lanark, Scotland
Institution: "Mossbank Industrial School"
Source: FHL Film 0203641 GRO Ref Volume 644-3 EnumDist 117 Page 6
John CHALMERS U 15 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland Occ: Scholar
--
Don't know about William though.
====
Later....this looks like John & Margaret LINDSAY in 1861 (from name index).
1861 cens 644-8 Ed 25 p 6 (Anderston)
John CHALMERS, 21, b Edinburgh, MLN
Margaret CHALMERS, 20, b Glasgow, LKS
William CHALMERS, under 1, b Glasgow
--
John's 1869 DC - parents,
William CHALMERS (dcd), bottlemaker & Janet DRYBURGH (dcd)
Informant - Elizabeth CHALMERS, sister.
--
IS this the same Elizabeth CHALMERS who married Samuel OLIVER in 1871?
(1881 census says Elizabeth (32) was born Leith, Edinburgh)
But Annette found her 1885 Poor Law application which says her parents were,
William CHALMERS (dcd), fireman & Janet SINCLAIR (dcd)
==
Sorry if i'm just making things more confusing.
Jack

[maggie]

Hello Wilma&Jack
Thankyou both for replying to my message
Wilma i haven't managed to find "aunt" Elizabeth on the 1861 or 1871 for certain .Elizabeth married in 1871 to Samuel Oliver in the December in Hutchenston.There was another "aunt" called Janet and an "uncle" called Alex on their fathers side but i haven't come accross them as yet more searching is required

Jack ah!!! ....the penny is dropping prehaps
could it be that Margaret is living with the very same Mrs Mcnaught that reported Elizabeth for co-habitation with her male lodger and that John you have found in the industrial school is the nephew that is also mentioned prehaps he could have been a tad disgruntled at the way his life had turned out through no fault of his own and prehaps felt "aunt " elizabeth hadn't done enough for him & his siblings and now it was pay back time????(i will have to read up on industrial schools but i can imagine that they would not have been the easiest of places to have been brought up in and that would explain his behaviour i think i wrote ? or maybe just thought at the time that with family like that i hope she had some good friends !!
i will take another look on SP to see what i can find i think that the spelling Chalmers/Chambers is where i am going wrong i hadn't even considered using chambers until finding John the father and then assumed it was because he was illiterate when his siblings that i had found had been Chalmers.(meaning Elizabeth married to Samuel & His brother William who died in 1863 he was the late of the HMS Trafalgar.)
Thankyou both once again your help is appreciated
kind regards maggie

[maggie]

Hello Jack
i have just lost my whole message to you somehow
so here goes again
yes Elizabeth is the same one as married to samuel Oliver as to the poor law application that Annette kindly got the following might make sense of that.....
in 1836 in south leith William Chalmers married Elizabeth Drysburgh
and had Janet c 24th feb 1839
John Dryburgh Chalmers c 14th mar 1846
Elizabeth miller Cghalmers c 13th sept 1846
the 1841 census gives
william Chalmers 25 b midlothian
Elizabeth 35 b midlothian
William 4 b midlothian
Janet 2 b midlothian
John 5 mths b midlothian
in 1847 a william chalmers married a Janet sinclair in south Leith
in the 1851 census it gives
William Chalmers glasshouse labourer age 38
Janet age 38 b leith
William son 11 b leith
Janet dau 13 b leith
John son age 10 b leith
Elizabeth daur age 2 b leith
Alex son age 1 b leith
i am assuming that the first Elizabeth died and when William & Janet had a daughter they called her Elizabeth after the first one.
The only spanner in the works is that when Elizabeth Chalmers /oliver/Baxter dies in 1920 age 66 her cert says that her mother was called Drysburgh(but that's on another thread where David said son in laws didn't allways give reliable info
thanks once again Jack your help is appreciated.

[Jack]

Hi Maggie,
Oddly enough i'd also been thinking "disgruntled" for John!
His sister in digs - and he in the Industrial School (which i'd presume wasn't an easy life, so not a happy chappy).

It would seem that John & Elizabeth are actually half-brother & half-sister,
and Elizabeth got a wee bit confused with John's 1869 DC giving her own mother's forename of
Janet instead of Elizabeth for John's mother.
(but she'd never known her father's 1st wife - maybe she did think her name was Janet,
though you'd think she'd remember if she had been named after dad's 1st wife!)

John born abt 1840 - mother Elizabeth DRYBURGH
Elizabeth born 1849 - mother Janet SINCLAIR
--
Jack
ps, i usually type any long replies on an e-mail or notepad, then open Post Reply and cut & paste to the box. Saves losing them!
For short replies i use the Reply Box, but use the Preview Button every so often if i feel my "short reply" is getting too long.
(this stops msgs disappearing)

[maggie]

hello Jack
thanks for the tip on how not to lose messages i will try it out
i can't find John on sp at all i can see from the 1881 discs where you got the info from but no joy in finding the same info on sp.the strange thing is the discs show 30 John Chalmers whereas only 27 show up on sp and he's not one of them.
i had a google for moss bank industrial school didn't find very much info though the description i found of it is enough to make you shiver.....

"It was intended to lay hold of and educate neglected and destitute children who having no parents or worse whose parents living themselves in vice and profligacy leave their offspring to grow up in ignorance or become vagrants or criminals"poor john i do hope that he managed to make something of his life despite this dreadfull start hopefully i will find out along the way.....
kind regards maggie

[Jack]

Hi Maggie,
Is it young John CHALMERS (Chambers) b. 16 Oct 1865 that you're trying to find in the 1881 census on SP?
As far as i'm aware SP don't have the original pages for 1881 yet, and are still at present using the transcriptions
taken from the 1881 LDS census CDs - which you already have.
[that's why i believe those 1881 census CDs from the LDS are a bargain at £30 -
and you can look at them whenever you want at no extra cost!]
I don't know why SP only gives 27 instead of 30 "John Chalmers" as i haven't used SP for 1881 for a long, long while...!
Later edit - but i see 51 John Chalmers b Glasgow in the "Lowland" CD....
--
Or is it young John's MC or DC you can't find?
Yes, the Moss Bank school would, i'd be thinking, be run on a very strict regime. I do hope he made out well.
Jack

[AndrewP]

I don't know why SP only gives 27 instead of 30 "John Chalmers" as i haven't used SP for 1881 for a long, long while...!

I'll stab a guess that it will be a spelling issue. The LDS CDs are quite tolerant of different spellings, whereas the SP search looks for exact spelling, or a limited variation using "soundex" if you tick that box.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[Jack]

Hi Andrew,
Yes it's very usefully tolerant on names at times - i noticed one as CHALMBERS.
I think the LDS CDs have a big advantage over SP when looking for "odd" spelled names.
But i have to remember you sometimes need 2 searches on the "MC" name.
Some "MC" names have to have a space between that and the 2nd part of the name.
I know you know this, but for anyone who doesn't! eg McNULTY, any age, born LKS, in "Lowland" Scotland.
--
McNULTY - 176 (no space)
Mc NULTY - 75 (with space)
--
Jack