Marriage certificate signatures.....

Birth, Marriage, Death

Moderator: Global Moderators

JimM
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:11 pm
Location: Scotland

Marriage certificate signatures.....

Post by JimM » Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:42 pm

Ever had a close look at the "signatures of parties" on marriage certificates?

Most likely the signature is fake.....a forgery committed by the registrar :shock:

I imagine either the bride or groom would take take the proof marriage to register the event after a few days :oops: :-
.....and the registrar would fill the details in his own hand

I have one certificate that has genuine signatures... the marriage took place at 50 Wellington street in Glasgow and was registered the same day (I wonder if this was a marriage suite or registry office?).

Jim
researching
McIntyre, Menzies, Cowley, Pearson, Copland, McCammond, Forbes, Edgar etc. in Scotland
Skinner in Northumberland

JustJean
Posts: 2520
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:52 am
Location: Maine USA

Post by JustJean » Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:40 pm

Hi Jim

In my own research I was confounded once why the MC signature did not seem to match those samples from later on......and then it was explained to me that the MC never has original signatures! :shock: The registrar is copying the information from another schedule which does contain the original signatures (if indeed they did sign instead of just marking their x). This schedule however is not available for public access unless extreme circumstances warrant it. I'm not sure what you're referring to for a MC that does have the original signatures? I didn't think this was possible.....but I could be way wrong :lol:


Best wishes
Jean

JimM
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:11 pm
Location: Scotland

Post by JimM » Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:57 pm

Hi Jean
I have uploaded the marriage certificate .... I may be wrong but I thought the signatures looked totally different.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-731
Jim

<URL added, LesleyB>
researching
McIntyre, Menzies, Cowley, Pearson, Copland, McCammond, Forbes, Edgar etc. in Scotland
Skinner in Northumberland

JustJean
Posts: 2520
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:52 am
Location: Maine USA

Post by JustJean » Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:09 pm

Hi Jim

Well there....this one is an irregular marriage! And I agree that the signatures most definitely do appear to be originals (or at least not entered by the registrar!)

The marriage schedule I was referring to was handled by the officiating minister in "regular" marriages so not the same situation. In my own research this was the problem for me as I needed to see the grooms signature to be certain it was the same fellow and the MC from his Church of Scotland ceremony did not contain it!

The Irregular Marriage topic : viewtopic.php?t=3726 describes the process in more detail.

Best wishes
Jean

JimM
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:11 pm
Location: Scotland

Post by JimM » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:23 pm

Hi Jean
I thought there was something different about this one because it is the only one i have where the date of marriage is the same as the date registered..

Interestingly, on the link you gave..... David based part of his post on an article by AnneM (who also has four rellies on this marriage certificate).

Jim
researching
McIntyre, Menzies, Cowley, Pearson, Copland, McCammond, Forbes, Edgar etc. in Scotland
Skinner in Northumberland

garibaldired
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:42 pm
Location: Dorset, UK

Post by garibaldired » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:52 pm

So ( and this may be a silly question!) why do English marriage certificates have original signatures?

Meg

sheilajim
Posts: 787
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: san clemente california

Post by sheilajim » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:59 pm

Hi All

I thought that all the signatures on the marriage certs that we have were just copies, made by the registar.

When I looked at my mother's first marriage Cert, it was obvious that wasn't her writing, where her signature was given.

However GROS does have the original signatures.
One of my GGGrandfathers name was incomplete, and when I notified SP of this, hoping to have the name completed, and corrected, they checked with GROS. They told me that when GROS checked it out, my GGGrandfather had signed it that way, and they could not correct it. :(

Regards

Sheila
Sheila

DavidWW
Posts: 5057
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm

Post by DavidWW » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:07 am

Hi All

Let's put this one to bed for once and for all !

The images that we now see are taken from the Registers of Marriage.

Up to 1939, for a regular marriage, the signatures in the marriage register entry aren't, - they are the transcriptions made from the Marriage Schedule by the registrar, who, most often, transcribed the signatures, and not the full names, - although there will sometimes be found at the bottom of the page a faint pencil note of the full name, - and it would seem, when some of the GROS indexes were being made (in the first few months of the following year), that reference was sometimes made back to the original marriage schedules in order to correctly index a name. These Marriage Schedules still exist, but, legal enquiries apart (e.g. to check a signature), are not open to the public.

There are only very occasional exceptions to this, most often deriving from situations involving serious blunders in the completion of the Marriage Schedules leading to the need for the whole situation to be re-visited, - in large registration districts any such may be noted in the "Marriage Memo Books" which were kept in such large registration districts, but I have no idea if these Books are still extant.

For the registration of irregular marriages, normally, both parties to the marriage had to present themselves at the registrar's office for the registration process required for an entry in the Register of Marriages based on the Sheriff's Warrant or other similar court warrant (Session or JP), and both parties actually signed the entry in the Register of Marriages. This wasn't a strict legal requirement, but established practice, and there are very occasional instances where the registrar accepted that only one party to the irregular marriage could attend, but, if the latter is the case, this will be shown clearly by an annotation by the Registrar on the entry in the Register of Marriages.

In the 1930s irregular marriages that were registered in the Register of Marriages were around 12.5% of the total. Anyone wishing to see how that proportion varied back to 1855 should consult the annual reports of the Registrars General of Scotland :!:

Note that the above information and comments are based on my 20 years of experience of the Scottish records plus reference to G.T. Bisset-Smith's Vital Registration - A Manual of the Law and Practice concerning The Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages: Registration Acts for Scotland; with Relative Notes on Vaccinations and the Census, Forms, and Tables of Fees &c., Edinburgh, William Green & Sons, Law Publishers, 1907.

After 1939, I don't have the same level of expertise, but believe that the same situation applied to church marriages (NB not necessarily conducted in the church itself, as a substantial proportion of marriages were still conducted at the bride's home, or other permitted locations).

After 1939 marriages in the registrar's office were permitted, and I would imagine, but cannot confirm, that the signatures shown on the image of the Marriage Register image are the actual signatures of the couple.

The only post-1939 irregular form of marriage permitted was that of "by habit and repute", and I have no idea at all as to whether any marriages confirmed by the required processes were then also retrospectively entered in the relevant Register of Marriages. (Note that a recent Act of Parliament has finally removed this form of irregular marriage.)

David

David W Webster FSA Scot

© David W Webster August 2006
Other than for personal research purposes, you may not modify, copy, reproduce, re-publish, upload, post, transmit or distribute this article in any way. If you wish to republish whole or part of this article for anything other than personal use please contact 106200.1510ATcompuserve.com - replace "AT" with "@"

James henderson
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:15 am
Location: World Famous Old Blacksmith's Shop

Signatures on Marriage Certificates

Post by James henderson » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:02 pm

If anyone would like to see original signatures (including X "his mark" for both witnesses and the principals - and occasionally for the marriage celebrant him/herself) we have many such certificates at Gretna Green. Researchers become quite excited upon recognising mothers/fathers or (g)grandmothers/(g)grandfathers signatures.

The records retained here include the primary registration books, that is the copy retained by the "Blacksmith Priest", a secondary copy (in most instances) of a single A5 size page (now bound in a book or file in order of date) and a few copies of the statement of qualification of residence for the requisite period. It would appear that a further copy (or two?) was issued to the parties concerned and that (convention or by-law?) required this to be taken to Dumfries local authority office for recording. Many of these were never so recorded but it was an understanding that the marriage was no less valid if this was not done, leading to some anecdotal stories of remarriage which became possible bigamy - inadvertent in one case at least I know of. From this it is apparant that the couple did not sign just one document on their visit to the Blacksmith's Shop but probably at least three, possibly four if the Declaration or Qualification of Residence is taken into account.

The statement of Qualification of Residence, for those arriving from England after 1856, would initially appear to have been verbal on the assumption that "my word is my bond". However a formal written affidavit was introduced later - but by whose rules is unclear. Was this by Act of Parliament or Order in Council or was it an initiative by the various celebrants to "cover their backs"?

It is also interesting that by the early 20th Century more Scots were availing themselves of the facility of Marriage by Declaration at Gretna Green than were the English (or other nationalities). An indication of the changes in social aspirations perhaps? After all those people could quite easily have married in Lanark or Falkirk or wherever they lived. Would their Minister have refused to marry them to avoid the disapproval of Father - possibly an Elder of the Kirk - driving them to a clandestine trip to the Border and the Blacksmith? Was this the reason for the new legislation of 1939/40 (in wartime?) long clamoured for by the Established Church of Scotland in particular?

I am interested in enlarging this subject. Can anyone help?
James

DavidWW
Posts: 5057
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm

Re: Signatures on Marriage Certificates

Post by DavidWW » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:53 pm

James henderson wrote:....massive snip.....
I am interested in enlarging this subject. Can anyone help?
James
Hi James

As a start, please have a look at http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=313, - this info is taken from the listing on the GROS site.

Is it possible for you to confirm exactly which records that you hold?

See also the first post in the thread at http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight= in relation to the definition of marriage in Scotland as given by Bell's Principles of Scots Law, - ignore the later thread drift into matters feline.

David