A puzzle

flipside · Post by **flipside** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:58 am

Hi Everyone

i am hoping for some help with this as it is driving me nuts,

Patrick Donnelly born approx 1859 married Margaret Smith also born approx 1859. They married 30 May 1881 at Blantyre.

Patrick father was Peter Donnelly and his mother was Isabella Campbell
Margaret's father was John Smith and her mother was Mary Jane Foy

I have the marriage cert for Patrick and also his death cert in which he died October 1923 at Blantyre

On Patrick marriage cert it lists his fathers occupation as a railway labourer, on his death cert it lists his father occupation as different kind of labourer i cant makes this out on the cert.

The trouble i am expirencing is that i cant find out anything else about Patrcik and his mother and father

any help/thoughts would be helpful

Flip

Post by **AndrewP** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:13 am

This looks like her family in the 1881 census (from the LDS CDs).

Dwelling: 48 Dixon St
Census Place: Blantyre, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203615 GRO Ref Volume 624 EnumDist 8 Page 37
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John SMITH M 51 M Ireland
Rel: Head
Occ: Shoemaker
Mary J. SMITH M 50 F Ireland
Rel: Wife
Elizabeth SMITH U 29 F Ireland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Weaver
Jane SMITH U 26 F Ireland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Domestic Servant
Margaret SMITH U 24 F Ireland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Dye Worker
Edward SMITH U 26 M Ireland
Rel: Son
Occ: Coal Miner
Sarah SMITH U 21 F Ireland
Rel: Daur
Occ: General Servt
Thomas SMITH U 19 M Ireland
Rel: Son
Occ: Coal Miner
David SMITH U 16 M Ireland
Rel: Son
Occ: Coal Miner
Frank SMITH 11 M Ireland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Patrick CAMPBELL U 24 M Ireland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: Labourer

All the best,

AndrewP

flipside · Post by **flipside** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:27 am

thanks AndrewP that was really quick, hopefully somebody will turn up anything on Patrck and his family

many many thanks gain

Flip

Post by **AndrewP** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:38 am

I took a look at the marriage certificate. I make her mother's name to be Fox rather than Foy. Then putting the parents' names into the IGI and doing a parent search, two siblings for Margaret show up.

Letitia Smyth, 26-Dec-1866, 0065, Loughgall, Armagh
Father: John Smyth
Mother: Mary Jane Fox

Francis Smith, 04-Aug-1868, Armagh, Ireland
Father: John Smith
Mother: Mary Jane Fox

Letitia appears to have been away from home by the time of the 1881 census, but give or take a year or two Francis of 1868 should be Frank, aged 11 in the 1881 census.

No obvious sign of the Donnelly family in the 1881 census. There are plenty of Peter / Patrick Donnellys there as boarders or lodgers with another (presumably) unrelated family. My best guess (so far) is that his parents were still in Ireland in 1881. He was not at the Merry's Row, Blantyre address that he gave on his marriage certificate on census night, about 8 weeks before the marriage.

All the best,

AndrewP

Post by **AndrewP** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:49 am

Another thought - back to the 1881 census of the Smith family above. Was their boarder Patrick Campbell, the same person as Patrick Donnelly (son of Peter Donnelly and Isabella Campbell)?

All the best,

AndrewP

flipside · Post by **flipside** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:03 am

amazing Andrewp you are posting faster than i can reply

Just to confirm i am reading this correctly a bit bleary eyed at the moment

Patrick Donnelly and Margaret Smith

Margaret's father was John Smith mother Mary Jane Fox

Margaret's Siblings were

Elizabeth SMITH U 29 F Ireland
Jane SMITH U 26 F Ireland
Edward SMITH U 26 M Ireland
Sarah SMITH U 21 F Ireland
Thomas SMITH U 19 M Ireland
David SMITH U 16 M Ireland
Frank SMITH 11 M Ireland
Letitia Smyth

The family came from Armagh, Ireland .

Patrick Campbell could have been the same as Patrick Donnelly.

one query that comes to my mind is that if his parents were in Ireland. They are alive on his marriage cert but dead on Patricks death cert. Also his fathers occupation has changed between certs. How would his family know that Patricks fathers occupation had changed and also when he died that his family know that that Peter and Isabella are dead (if that makes sense)

many thanks again

Flip

flipside · Post by **flipside** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:19 am

i just found out that John Smyth did marry Mary Jane Fox source year 1845 i got this from Armagh Ancestry

Flip

Post by **AndrewP** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:24 am

flipside wrote:Just to confirm i am reading this correctly a bit bleary eyed at the moment

Patrick Donnelly and Margaret Smith

Margaret's father was John Smith mother Mary Jane Fox

Margaret's Siblings were

Elizabeth SMITH U 29 F Ireland
Jane SMITH U 26 F Ireland
Edward SMITH U 26 M Ireland
Sarah SMITH U 21 F Ireland
Thomas SMITH U 19 M Ireland
David SMITH U 16 M Ireland
Frank SMITH 11 M Ireland
Letitia Smyth

The family came from Armagh, Ireland .

Patrick Campbell could have been the same as Patrick Donnelly.

Agreed - these are my interpretations of them from the marriage certificate, the 1881 census and the IGI.

flipside wrote:one query that comes to my mind is that if his parents were in Ireland. They are alive on his marriage cert but dead on Patricks death cert. Also his fathers occupation has changed between certs. How would his family know that Patricks fathers occupation had changed and also when he died that his family know that that Peter and Isabella are dead (if that makes sense)

42 years had elapsed between Patrick's marriage and death. Maybe the details had lost their accuracy over the years. Patrick's son was the informant - maybe his grandfather had died when he was young and he filled in the details as well as he remembered them.

The death certificate shows the father as an agricultural labourer. Maybe he had changed from working on the railway to working in the fields. Or maybe his occupation had also lost its accuracy over the years. Similarly, Isabella Donnelly's maiden surname listed as Campbell on the marriage certificate, was listed as Camell on the death certificate. Patrick had only aged 36 years over the 42 years between his marriage and his death if you take both given ages as correct.

All the best,

AndrewP

flipside · Post by **flipside** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:48 am

Andrewp

you are quite correct there are allot of inaccuracies, i mean it is obvious with a name like Donnelly thier roots lie in Ireland. Without knowing were in Ireland i would not have clue were to start. My great Aunt belived they came from Donegal but was not sure

Your help has been invaluable and greatly appreiated

Flip

flipside · Post by **flipside** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:11 am

anybody up for the Donnelly side of this puzzle?

Flip