Scottish g/g/grandfather, died in Liverpool

[Kingfisher]

Hi eveyone
I wonder if anyone can suggest how I can get around a blockage in my family history research? My name's Ian McKay; and, I was born , and still live, in Liverpool. My g/g/grandfather was William McKay who married my g/g/grandmother Eliza Jones, in St Mary's Church, Chester, in July 1849.

My research is accurate, to date, but I've now got a dillemma in that, although all the Liverpool Census forms, 1851/61/71 show that William was "Born Scotland", in 1817, they don't tell me whereabouts in Scotland. Whilst I have William's English marriage Certificate, and death Certificate, I have not been able to establish his D.O.B!

With inaluable help from Mary (emanday), I located a son, William, born on 4th Dec 1817, to a Robert MacKay and a Janet Davidson, in Reay, I also discovered, a couple of weeks ago, that the way our family spelt our name, with a small underscore under the letter C, indicated that our name had been abbreviated from MacKay. I always remember asking my father why we had a little line under the small c, but he could never tell me!

On the Liverpool 1881 census form I found that my g/g/grandfather, William's, first born son had reverted to the MacKay spelling: also, his name was John Robert MacKay, another indication that Robert might be my g/g/g/grandfather! My problem is that I am at a loss to know where to look for Williams D.O.B, here in Liverpool, in order to say, with accuracy, that Robert MacKay and Janet Davidson, are my g/g/g/grandparent's.

Can anyone tell me, was it customary in 1849 for a man to declare his date of birth when he married in England? If so, I can take a look at the records of the parish Church od St Mary, in Chester, where my g/g/granparents were married. Any other suggestions, as to how I can ascertain Williams actual D.O.B, would be most welcome.
Best
Ian

[emanday]

Hi Ian,

Unfortunately the English records aren't as informative as the Scottish ones.

Even the age at death can only be relied on if the informant knew that for certain or had a birth certificate to hand.

Have you found him on the censuses? It isn't foolproof, but if he was honest and knew the year of his birth, he might have given an accurate age. Some might even give his actual place of birth, (bit of a lottery that one as it may only say Scotland )

[SarahND]

Hi Ian,
This looks like a tough one. You say you have William's marriage and death certificates and neither one mentions his place or date of birth. It would have been unusual if it did, but one can always hope! You have also checked all the censuses and they just say Scotland... Again, sometimes you get lucky and they specify, but not in this case. Hmmm k The only thing I can think of is to try to trace the family of Robert and Janet. If they lived until 1855 and, miracle of miracles, William came up to Scotland to sign their death certificate, you might be able to infer something (although unless his address was given you couldn't know he was your William...). If some of his children were staying with some of his siblings in any of the censuses... Well, all I'm suggesting is that you try to trace the family of Robert and Janet as far as possible and see if they intersect anywhere with what you know of William and his family. It's a long shot, but it sometimes pays off.

Someone else may come on with a brilliant idea, but that's as far as I can get right now!
All the best,
Sarah

P.S. I just checked your earlier post and I see that William's marriage certificate did give his father's name as Robert. This does, certainly, strengthen the case, since between 1815 and 1819 there are only 7 William m*kay born to a father Robert, and only the one in Caithness. If you could prove Caithness

[fmackay]

Hi Ian
As a Mackay myself I have found through my research that anything goes when it comes to the spelling. There didn't seem to be any particular resaon why the person would spell their name a certain way and it could vary from generation to generation. The way I spell my surname has stayed that way for three generations, before that it was Mckay aswell as Mackay.

Good luck with your research

Fiona

[emanday]

Ian,

What were the names of William's children, in birth order or with birthdates?

[Kingfisher]

Hello Mary
On the 1871 Liverpool census image, my g/g/grandfather William was shown to be living at 6 Molyneux Street: together with wife Eliza, and six children, five sons and one daughter: in chronological order they were, as follows.

John Robert, aged 20

William, aged 18

Alexander, aged 16

James Archibald, aged 13 (My G/grandtfather)

Walter, aged 10

Agnes, aged 7

William is shown as "Born Scotland; John Robert McKay is shown as born Gresford Denbighshire, (Eliza was Welsh). All the others are shown as Born Liverpool, Lancashire, as it was then (Pre Maggie Thatcher!)

Hope this helps!
Best
Ian

[emanday]

If William and Eliza followed the naming pattern, at least with the first son and first daughter, then Eliza's mother should be Agnes ...

ELIZABETH JONES Christening: 20 JUN 1813 Efenechtyd, Denbigh, Wales

Father: EVAN JONES
Mother: AGNES (no surname given)

Her birth year would make her older than William, but I've got a few rellies where this was the case. Unfortunately, William and Eliza don't seem to have used the name Evan for the second son, which would have fitted with the Scottish naming pattern.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a marriage for Evan and Agnes in Denbigh, but there was one...

EVAN JONES
Spouse: ANNAS OWENS
Marriage: 12 FEB 1802 Bettws-Y-Coed, Caernarvon, Wales
(Maybe Annas/Agnes came from Caernarvon but went to live in Denbigh with Evan)

All very speculative I'm afraid

[emanday]

William's 3rd son, Alexander, might have been named for William's Father's father?

Only two Robert McKay births in late 1700's with Alexander as father...

ROBERT MACKAY Christening: 09 JUL 1795 Reay, Caithness, Scotland
Father: ALEX MACKAY
Mother: JANET MACKAY

ROBERT MC KAY Christening: 23 SEP 1783 Reay, Caithness, Scotland
Father: ALEXANDER MC KAY
Mother: JANET MACKAY

...and I'm still speculating

P.S. It's a pity William and Eliza didn't have a 2nd daughter named Janet

[Kingfisher]

Hello again Mary
Thanks a lot for this information, it gives me some more to play around with, at least. I have also contacted the Parish Church of St Mary, in Chester, where William and Eliza were married, in 1849. I've not yet had any reply from them, but I will let you know, as soon as I do so!

I don't know if it was customary for a man to give his date of birth to the church when he married, although it sounds reasonable! If it was, and I can match William's reliable D.O.B with the son, William, born to Robert and Janet MacKay, on Dec 4th 1817, then I have a flying start to tracing further back into my Scottish forbears. Thanks again Mary.
Best
Ian