Going on a GWYNNE hunt.......

[Rockford]

Hi folks,

This is probably going to be quite longwinded - my apologies in advance!

I had given up finding any more about my GWYNNE ancestors, due to the creative spellings (Gwynn, Gwyne, Gwine, Gwin, GUIN etc!). However, in the last few days, I've made good progress through some detective work I'm quite proud of. The problem I had was that I couldn't find them in census records on SP, but I splashed out on a few credits for Ancestry and found them there - although I couldn't see the image, by looking at 'others on the page' I found a family on the 1881 census with a really easy to spell surname and on Saturday's trip to the Mitchell Library, I looked up the microfilm and I FOUND THE GWYNNES NEXT DOOR!!

I then looked at the 1881, 1891 and 1901 Census (Censi!?!) for the same district [Greengairs, New Monkland] and found bits of the family again - the writing in 1891 is quite 'flowery' and I imagines that they could be indexed on SP as anything from Gwynne to Swann - they are definitely Gwynnes though [when you know what it says!]

My problem is this - the family seem to have materialised in New Monkland in 1871 and I can't find them in 1861 or 1851. I'd appreciated any help or hints that anyone could offer - here's what I know so far.....

James Gwynne was born in Ireland in 1825? and according to the 1871 Census was a Shale and Ironstone Contractor at West Glentore, New Monkland. On various marriage and death certificates, he is listed as anything from a pit contractor to a shoemaker. His wife Elizabeth was also born in Ireland around 1830 (again according to the 1871 Census). James died in 1878 at Greengairs, where I found Elizabeth and family in 1881 and 1891. She died in 1908 in Dalserf.

Children so far are:

William b. 1850 New Monkland, died 1929 Midlothian [married Agnes Hunter]
John b. 1853 Old Monkland
Agnes b. 1854 Shotts, died 1912 Musselburgh [married Peter Hunter - Agnes Hunter's brother!] my great, great grandparents
James b. 1857 New Monkland, died 1915 New Monkland [married Janet Grant]
Robert b. 1860 Airdrie, New Monkland
Martha b. 1863 Airdrie, New Monkland
Matilda b. 1863 Airdrie, New Monkland, died 1931 Polmont [married James Morrison]
Mary b. 1865 Airdrie, New Monkland, died 1952 Cleland [married William Marshall]
Joseph b. 1867 Airdrie, New Monkland, died 1924 Larkhall
Sarah b. 1869, New Monkland, d. 1889 Greengairs

There's a rumour that the family came from Wales (Gwyn is Welsh for White apparently), but James (in 1871) and Elizabeth are consistently listed as having been born in Ireland.

Going by the ages of the children, James and Elizabeth should have been in the wider [Landward] portion of New Monkland, or in Airdrie, but I can't find them.

I've found the information on the children through Census records and using wildcards to locate marriages. The 1891 Census has Elizabeth living with Joseph and three grandchildren, so that gave me a good start for possible marriages. I've also found illegitimate weans and acknowledgements of paternity along the way......

To prevent my hair going Gwyn and to get my wife talking to me again, I'd appreciate any help or suggestions that anyone can give me in locating the family in 1861 and 1851!

Thanks

Brian

[AndrewP]

Hi Brian,

The online IGI (New Monkalnd 1855 to 1875 batch) lists the children as:

JAMES QUIN - Birth: 04 JAN 1856 New Monkland, Lanarkshire
ROBERT ALEXANDER GWINN - Birth: 12 MAR 1860 New Monkland, Lanarkshire
MATILDA GUIN - Female Birth: 03 OCT 1862 New Monkland, Lanarkshire
MARY GUIN - Female Birth: 23 NOV 1864 New Monkland, Lanarkshire
JOSEPH GUIN - Male Birth: 03 JAN 1867 New Monkland, Lanarkshire
SARAH JANE GUYNN - Female Birth: 04 DEC 1868 New Monkland, Lanarkshire

There are minor discrepancies from the years that you gave above. As you expected the spelling is all over the place. Their birth certificates should be available on ScotlandsPeople, probably with the spellings as above.

Is the Martha you listed possibly the same person as Matilda? Did you ever see them listed together?

They are there in 1861 on ScotlandsPeople indexed as Quin with their 6 children. Search for Robert, age 1 to find them easily.

They are there in 1851 too. Search for William Quin, age 0.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Rockford]

Hi Andrew,

How on earth did you find them listed on the IGI!? I've just done a parent search and only come up with Robert and William.

I wondered about Martha and Matilda, too. My initial thought was that they might have been twins, but Martha is listed aged 8 on the 1871 census and Matilda is listed as 18 in 1881 and again in 1891 (although by that time she's 28 and married to James Morrison) but you're right, I've never seen them listed together. They probably are the same person.

The other children you've listed certainly look like the right ones, even with the random weirdness of some of the spelling! - I'm not worried too much about the discrepancy in the ages, as the birthdates I listed are based on working back from marriage and death certificates.

I'm off to try some of the names you gave me on SP to see what comes up. I might even get a marriage date for James and Elizabeth.....

Thanks (again!)

Brian

[AndrewP]

Hi Brian,

See my edits regarding the censuses in the above post.

The search I did on the IGI was:

• Father's first name: James
  Father's surname: <blank>
  Mother's First name: Elizabeth
  Mother's surname: Dale
  Region: British Isles
  Batch number: C116511

Using the batch number allows you to be more vague in the name details, such as no father's surname.

Ancestry has them listed as the Quen family in 1861, and Quin in 1851.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Anne H]

Hi Brian,

Here's the family on Ancestry under QUEN on the 1861 census

1861 Census: 48 Aitchison St, Airdrie, Lanarkshire
Reg 651/1; Ed 21; Household 35; Line 9; CSSCT1861-117

James Quen-- 35 ----- ---------Ireland ---- Coalier
Bessie Quen-- 35 ----- ---------Ireland---- Coalier’s wife
William Quen-- 11 ------------Airdrie
John Quen-- 9 ------------------Airdrie
Agnes Quen-- 7 ----------------Shotts
Eliza Quen-- 7 ------------------Shotts
James Quen-- 5 ----------------Airdrie
Robert Quen-- 1 ---------------Airdrie

Regards,
Anne H

[AndrewP]

Hi Brian,

Their marriage (or more likely calling of the banns) is there on ScotlandsPeople as James Giveen and Betsy Dale in August 1849.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Anne H]

Hi Brian,

Here they are on the 1851 census, this time as QUIN...as usual you would need to verify everything from Ancestry against the originals on SP.

1851 Census: East Backtanque, New Monkland, Lanarkshire
Parish # 651; Ed 9; Household 12; Line 7; CSSCT1851-170

James Quin-- 24 ----- ---------Ireland ---- Drawer transtane
Elizabeth Quin -- 21 ----- ----Ireland
William Quin —9 mo --------New Monkland

Regards,
Anne H

[momat]

With that lot to contend with I reckon you will be pulling your hair out never mind going Gwyn.
What a choice!!
Good Luck.

[Rockford]

Ma heid's birlin!

Andrew - thank you for finding them on the census for 1861 and 1851 - thanks to your efforts I now have the images from SP. Also, from the information you gave me on the children's names (and thanks for pointing out that leaving out the father's name gave all possible options - wood for the trees and all that!) I now have birth records for Mary, Matilda and Joseph (I've still to look at the others). Mary (or Matilda's!) gave the date of James and Elizabeth/Betsy's marriage as 17 Sept 1849 in Greengairs, which was a bonus, and suggests that they may have met here and that there is more to be found on their parents etc. in Lanarkshire.

All the various spellings in the census records are definitely my squad - Anne, thank you for the transcriptions I've blown my last credits on Ancestry!! Having looked at the originals on SP, it definitely looks like Quin for 1861 and 1851, but the addresses, at Aitchison Street and Blacktongue match with the information I now have on the birthplaces of the children and the later censuses.

I know there is another thread on Irish pronunciations of names and I suppose that may be what happened with the Gwynne/Quins, as I imagine that Quinn would have come much more readily to the ear of a Census enumerator in 1850s Lanarkshire than Gwynne would have - it doesn't seem to be until James and Elizabeth's children have grown up and are registering deaths and births etc that there seems to be any consistency. A compliment to the Greengairs schoolteacher perhaps?!?!

Momat - I think the help from Andrew and Anne came just in the nick of time!!

Thanks again to all of you, I really appreciate it.

Best wishes

Brian

[Rockford]

Hello again!

I've spent the last two days trying to piece together all the bits and pieces I've found (with all of your help!) in birth records and census.

However, I've now found something quite interesting and would appreciate others' views.

Playing about with the IGI site last night, I found a birth of an Alexander GUINN in Auchinleck, Ayrshire on 30 April 1858 who, according to the IGI was born to James GUIN and Betsy DALE - which is a huge coincidence, as there can't be too many couples with these names. Sadly, Alexander died in March 1859 in Glenbuck, Muirkirk, which is just up the road from Auchinleck.

Alexander's birth and his death were registered by his father with 'his mark', so any mis-spelling would perhaps not be apparent to James.

The distance between Auchinleck and Airdrie/Greengairs would make me stop and think whether this was indeed a GWYNNE birth if it were not for the fact that the GWYNNEs next child (that I've found so far) was Robert ALEXANDER Gwinn born in March 1860 back in Airdrie. Robert's birth was also registered by James, this time with a very rudimentary signature.

I suppose I'm asking for an opinion as to whether Alexander is one of my GWYNNEs, although I am inclined to think so. Would it be likely that the pits in Airdrie and those in Auchinleck were owned by the same company and James was perhaps moved for a short period?

I'm also having difficulty deciphering Alexander's cause of death and I've uploaded the certificate to the gallery. I'd appreciate any help!

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1298

Best wishes

Brian

Gallery URL added - AndrewP