Thomas or James Graham, born c1815/19

[Montrose Budie]

I thought perhaps the family weren't part of an established church but I see the children are indexed at SP.

On having a closer look I see your dilema. There are 4 children indexed at the IGI to James Graham and Catherine Brown who match exactly with your family on the census.

Results for: Father: James Graham, Mother: Catherine Brown

1. ANN GRAHAM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 27 APR 1844 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
3. MARY GRAHAM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 18 DEC 1847 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
4. JOHN GRAHAM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 15 DEC 1845 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
5. THOMAS GRAHAM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 02 MAR 1850 Barony, Lanark, Scotland

Then these -

Results for: Father: Thomas Graham, Mother: Catherine Brown

1. Catherine Graham - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 01 MAR 1852 Barony Parish, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland (indexed at SP)
2. Andrew Wilson Graham - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 01 MAR 1854 Barony Parish, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland (indexed at SP)
3. JAMES BROWN GRAHAM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 22 APR 1856 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
5. ROBERT MCNICOL GRAHAM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 10 JUN 1858 Central District, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
13. JANET GRAHAM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 26 APR 1842 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

I was starting to think they were 2 different people but the census records agree with the above.

Sorry this doesn't help much with your original query but thought I'd post it for anyone watching and could take it further.

Regards,
Annette

Hmmmmmm........

But for that JANET GRAHAM - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 26 APR 1842 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland record, parents Thomas GRAHAM and Catherine BROWN, I'd not have been surprised to find that there were two separate families, that of Thomas GRAHAM & Catherine BROWN, and James GRAHAM & Catherine BROWN.

Has anyone had a look at the OPR marriage/banns records ? Given the recorded date for the marriage/banns of Thomas and Catherine in 1840 it would appear to be the situation that this is a case of a man changing his given name ! But then again, it's far from impossible that a marriage/banns record for James GRAHAM and *ath?rine BROWN hasn't survived for whatever reason to the present day!

But nothing, absobl***ynothing, can substitute for a look at all the images of these OPR birth/baptism records, as it's possible, but not at all certain, that other info,. e.g. occupation and location, will reinforce or otherwise the link between these two groups of birth/baptism OPR records !

Never mind that it appears to be the case that later census records show all the above wains in the same household.

mb

[LesleyB]

If it was not for that 1842 birth, it could almost look like Catherine had perhaps married one chap, he died and she had married his brother. But the 1842 birth puts paid to that as a theory...

Have you ever found any siblings for James/Thomas?

[Rantskew]

Thank you Lesley nelmit & mb for your replies & interesting theories

Nelmit
That was very interesting regarding the IGI, was this a mix up when transcribing?

Mb
I agree that the only way to confirm information is to see it in black and white.

I have the images of Thomas and Catherine’s marriage and their death certificates and they match.
I have the images of all the children’s births. Also marriage certificate’s of Ann D
And my great grandfather James’s marriage.
His occupation is correct on all images and the witnesses for the children are always siblings of Catherine, never any siblings of Thomas’s so no clues as to any siblings.
On the death certificate of Thomas it states that his father was John Graham and his wife Ann Dalton. I have the marriage certificate for John and Ann, they were married in Carlisle in 1806.

This is the reason I thought maybe Thomas was born in England, as I cannot find
Thomas’s birth on SP. Also cannot find Catherine’s birth on SP??

Lesley
No idea if Thomas had any siblings, so no help there.

once again, thank you all for your time and effort. Rantskew

[JustJean]

Hi folks

In reading through this one I'm wondering several things so just thought I'd toss them out...

1. The only proof so far that you have of the 1806 Carlisle couple being the correct pair is the fact that the names match. At least this is what I'm getting from everything I read so far right?....soooo....this lead might just be a false one. Interesting possiblilty though! It surely would be worthwhile to plot out other GRAHAM and DALTON families in St. Mary's parish around that time frame and look for possible leads on siblings or even cousins getting married.

2. The middle names given the children. Have you explored the significance of these? Are they all from Catherine's side of the family or untraceable or what?

3. Finally.....certainly would be well worth the effort to trace marriages for all of the offspring of Thomas/James and Catherine to find out just what they thought their father's name was!! This is the only document where they would be the one giving the answers. With that many kids how many Thomases and how many James do you get....or heaven forbid any other choices?

Best wishes
Jean

[Rantskew]

Hi Jean

Thanks for your post.

1. Checked Scottish & Irish records first. (Including IGI) No Graham/Dalton marriages. Checked English and up popped this marriage on IGI, so got a copy of marriage.
A sort of family story is that the Graham's were sheep rustlers.
Have boned up on Graham's being Reivers in the borders so just another bit to add to the possibility.

2. There are so many different Naming Patterns on the internet.
Before I found John & Ann I worked out that Thomas father should be John
which it was.
One of Thomas's off spring, my g.grandfather, James Brown Graham makes sense.
There is an Andrew Wilson & Robert McNicol. So where does Wilson & McNicol come into the picture??

3. Will start tonight on SP people getting the marriages

thanks for this angle Jean.
Rantskew

[JustJean]

Ok...ready for a real long shot????

I was just minding my own business and browsing throught the 1841 census indexes for Glasgow and just looking at all the GRAHAM's born in England that might just might be a lead on the parents or siblings of Thomas/James. And so just by clicking around I saw this family.....

Name: John Graham
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
Gender: Male
Where born: England

Civil Parish: Barony
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Mckilligus Court
Occupation: Sp Deal
Parish Number: 622
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Graham 55
Jan Haddow 40
Elizabeth Graham 15
John Graham 5
Ann Graham 3
Margt Graham 19
David Arthur 20

And of course my fertile imagination suddenly could see that Jan Haddow might be a wife or might be a second wife...big age spread you see....and then there are two older girls and them some younger weans also a sign it might be remants of two wives. Of course 1841 doesn't give us much to go on does it???? But you know what....on a real gamble I said to myself (and I've seen this play out before) what if???? Margt Graham age 19 was sweet on David Arthur age 20......what if they got themselves hitched and had a family down the line. What if I search on SP for a death for a Margaret Graham other name Arthur and see what pops up.

and see what did....

1901 GRAHAM MARGARET ARTHUR F 78 ANDERSTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/10 0161

So what the heck I say....take a peek and see who she was!!

The DC says she was a widow of David Arthur, blacksmith. Says her parents were named John Graham, grocer and Ann Graham ms Dalton.

So now tell me is she a sister and have I found your rellies?.....or have I simply found the couple that married in Carlisle?.......

Comments are welcome.....

Best wishes
Jean

[JustJean]

btw...the ancestry indexed occupation of David Arthur in 1841 was Smith L ......blacksmith? I haven't viewed the original yet and gotta run out for an appt at the moment!!! I hate it when work interfers with my passion!!!

bw
Jean

[Rantskew]

Just (in) Jean from the town

Read it twice, will print off and scribble notes to digest,
brilliant work Jean, your as off beat as me. Skrew lateral thinking

Will be back later. Wooo

thanks again Jean.
Rantskrew

[LesleyB]

Hi Jean
Looking most interesting and very promising, I reckon! Good work there, Jean. The same family you found are on freecen (www.freecen.org.uk) if that is any help.

Barony, St Matthews Enumeration District: 11
Mckilligan's Court
GRAHAM John M 55 Spirit Dealer England
HADDOW Ann F 40 Lanarkshire
GRAHAM Elizbeth F 15 Lanarkshire
GRAHAM John M 5 Lanarkshire
GRAHAM Ann F 3 Lanarkshire
GRAHAM Margt. F 19 Lanarkshire
ARTHUR David M 20 Smith L Outside Census County (1841)

The children listed appear to be born in Lanarkshire, although all younger than our man...I wonder if either James /Thomas was born there, or was born elsewhere, e.g. England, but then moved when he was quite young so only remembered growing up in Glasgow and took that to be his birthplace...? Certainly seen that one happen before too.

The '51 should give more precise birth places too, which might be of interest. What appears to be be the likely marriage of Margaret & David is interesting too... On IGI (extract):

MARGARET GRAHAM
Marriages:
Spouse: DAVID ARTHUR
Marriage: 04 OCT 1840 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
...so it seems they were already married at the time of the 1841 census? But that perhaps explains the order they seem to be listed in on the page - the couple are perhaps just visiting or lodging.

Best wishes
Lesley

[Rantskew]

The children listed appear to be born in Lanarkshire, although all younger than our man...I wonder if either James /Thomas was born there, or was born elsewhere, e.g. England, but then moved when he was quite young so only remembered growing up in Glasgow and took that to be his birthplace...? Certainly seen that one happen before too.

That's what I and some cousins believe Lesley, think Thomas/James was born in Carlisle, family moved to Glasgow and he can only really relate to evens in Glasgow and therefore thought he was born in Glasgow.
Can't get any peace until later to peruse all that has been said here,
like Jean has said I hate it when work interfers with my passion!!!

scratch you later. Rantskrew