Sunter, Lunn, Wallace, Bruce, Watson, Morris, Peddie

killearnan · Post by **killearnan** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:07 pm

In addition to looking at naming patterns, I've found it very helpful to keep track of the witnesses to events in the OPRs.

In a couple cases, I've untangled families with same/similar names by finding patterns in who the witnesses were to various events. If the parishes were sparsely populated enough and/or the families close enough that the witness sets overlap, it might not work.... but I've had cases where there was no overlap and one of the witnesses in each set was from the wife's family. Not quite a flashing neon sign describing who was who, but it can help

Even if the two William Sunters had wives with the same first name, you may be able to figure out which children go with which couple if any of her relatives served as witnesses......

A definite reason to not just work from the IGI or the index at SP!

Oh, and another thing -- what description of residence (farm or street?) is there for David and the two Williams? Any clues there?

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:46 am

LesleyB wrote:Hi David
Perhaps worth looking at the second female child, as she should, if the naming pattern was followed, carry the first name of her paternal grandmother, so perhaps give you the name William's wife. However if both Williams in Kilconquhar married women with the same first name you'll be no further forward...

I'm not seeing that marraige you mentioned for 1795 listed on IGI - is it perhaps only on SP? I've not looked yet. But I am seeing this, which seems a coincidence of names....:
DAVID SUNTER
Male

Marriages:
Spouse: MARGARET ANDREW
Marriage: 02 APR 1785 Low Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland

The above couple seem to have three children in the Paisley area around the same time your couple appear to be having kids in Fife but looking at the children, there is no reason why they could not be the same couple moving back and forth.... I wonder if that is possible? With the children, none are born at the same time which would lead one to suppose they are the same couple and the spacing of the births seems about right.

JEAN SUNTER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 14 DEC 1785
Female Christening: 18 DEC 1785 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

ALEXANDER SUNTER
Gender: Male Christening: 21 FEB 1788 Low Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland

MARGARET SUNTER
Gender: Female Birth: 05 NOV 1790 Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland

JAMES SUNTER
Gender: Male Birth: 07 FEB 1793 Middle Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland

ANNE SUNTER
Gender: Female Birth: 25 MAY 1795
Female Christening: 31 MAY 1795 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

WILLIAM SUNTER
Gender: Male Birth: 10 JAN 1798
Male Christening: 15 JAN 1798 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

DAVID SUNTER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 29 APR 1800
Male Christening: 06 MAY 1800 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

JOHN SUNTER
Gender: Male Birth: 01 MAY 1802
Male Christening: 26 AUG 1802 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

JANET SUNTER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 05 AUG 1806
Female Christening: 23 SEP 1806 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

ELISABETH SUNTER
Gender: Female Birth: 03 SEP 1809
Female Christening: 17 SEP 1809 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland

Best wishes
Lesley

yes they are one and the same. the marriage thing is a very hard to read, alomsy illegible thing from a parish record that I got on SP.

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:50 am

nelmit wrote:
Andrew Sunter wrote:
WilmaM wrote:Welcome to Talking Scot Andrew,

It is possible that William Sunter's parents lived to 1841 and would be on the census for that year.

I can't see any of them on the freecen site, but that isn't complete yet.
Do you have William & Elizabeth on the various census returns? you can find them on Scotlands People.

Perhaps you might even find a parent living with them?
I have Elizabeth on the 1841 census but William isn't on it. but then William re-appears on the 1861 census and Elizabeth isn't. I'm assuming the 2 are the same as they had a son Robert who appears on both and at the correct ages.
What was William's occupation - the one married to Elizabeth Christie who died in 1878?

Regards,
Annette

William was a weaver.

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:57 am

Thanks to all who have helped so far. its much appreciated.

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:21 am

LesleyB wrote:Hi David
Perhaps worth looking at the second female child, as she should, if the naming pattern was followed, carry the first name of her paternal grandmother, so perhaps give you the name William's wife. However if both Williams in Kilconquhar married women with the same first name you'll be no further forward...

Best wishes
Lesley

the second female child was Margaret, presumably named after mother, so would it then make sense to go back to the first female (i.e. Jean) as a possible grandmothers name?

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:29 am

Hi Andrew

the second female child was Margaret, presumably named after mother

Margaret was a very popular name - it is possible it could have been the name of her paternal grandmother AND her mother!

so would it then make sense to go back to the first female (i.e. Jean) as a possible grandmothers name?

If the naming pattern was followed, the first female child would be named after her mother's mother.

Best wishes
Lesley

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:14 am

I've found a possible candidate. there was a David Suntar (note the different spelling) born in Kilconquhar in 1763. he'd have been 22 in 1785 when he (?) married Margaret Andrew.

David's parents were Alexander Sunter and Margaret Symson and they also had a daughter called Anne which crops up again in Davd and Margaret Andrew's children.

obviously this doesn't fit in with my theory that David's father was called William. I cant recall where that theory came from.

I have no way of estimating if Alexander and Margaret Symson are correct except that the timescale, and the place, fits. I suppose the name Margaret fits as well given that David's second daughter was Margaret but as LesleyB notes Margaret was very common (still is in the Sunter diaspora).

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:29 pm

Hi Andrew

obviously this doesn't fit in with my theory that David's father was called William. I cant recall where that theory came from.

I've been looking back into my family tree over the last few weeks and i think i've got us as far back as a marriage between David Sunter and Margaret Andrew in 1795. on the parish marriage record the male is deemed as son of William Sunter.

Maybe you need to go back and check the OPR to be sure if that is what is stated. I often find I need to go back to documents many times - sometimes what you skimmed over at the first read, turns out to be of vital importance later on....The devil is always in the detail.

Best wishes
Lesley

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:11 pm

Andrew Sunter wrote:
nelmit wrote:
Andrew Sunter wrote: I have Elizabeth on the 1841 census but William isn't on it. but then William re-appears on the 1861 census and Elizabeth isn't. I'm assuming the 2 are the same as they had a son Robert who appears on both and at the correct ages.
What was William's occupation - the one married to Elizabeth Christie who died in 1878?

Regards,
Annette
William was a weaver.

I have to go back to work but will look again at the census when I get home.

I'm pretty sure the William Sunter who had Robert in his household at Abbotshall was a shoemaker and was still alive in 1881.

Regards,
Annette

Andrew Sunter · Post by **Andrew Sunter** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:17 pm

nelmit wrote:
Andrew Sunter wrote:
nelmit wrote: What was William's occupation - the one married to Elizabeth Christie who died in 1878?

Regards,
Annette
William was a weaver.
I have to go back to work but will look again at the census when I get home.

I'm pretty sure the William Sunter who had Robert in his household at Abbotshall was a shoemaker and was still alive in 1881.

Regards,
Annette

you may have misread that. Robert, the son, is a shoemaker. i have that confirmed from a marriage certificate for my great grandparents (Alexander Sunter and Margaret Morris). and on Robert's wedding (to Janet Peddie in Dundee in 1864) certificate his father William is listed as a weaver.

EDIT - you may be onto something though. I've just checked William Sunter (who died in 1878) death certificate - he is noted as an ex-weaver on it - but importantly his wife (deceased) is noted as Elizabeth Peebles. Robert's dad is also a weaver but his wife is Elizabeth Christie.

I may need to re-think the David Sunter/Margaret Andrew bit.

no wonder i'm confused