Help with replacing Fathers lost Scottish Birth Certificate

[Currie]

To illustrate mb’s point, here’s a birth certificate for my great grandfather’s brother. He was born 15th January, 1878, in Edinburgh. His birth was registered on 7th February at age 3 weeks. The birth certificate was issued on the same day. You can’t get any more ’original’ than that but it’s still only an extract. http://www.talkingscot.com/gallery/thum ... m=4&page=1

Alan

[Montrose Budie]

Hi Ryan

As my good turn for the day, and taking account the Oz/Scotland time difference (look very closely and you'll see the halo !) I thought that I'd ring GROS in Edinburgh.

I spoke with someone in GROS who obviously is sick fed up to their back teeth with such queries (very diplomatically, of course), but, very sadly, of all the countries in the world, it is just Australia that is involved here for some unfathomable reason.

Apparantly, the relevant folk down under have been told by GRoS time and time again over a period of decades that a Scottish 'extract' bought today is just as legal a document as the 'extract' that was provided to the informant at the time of the registration.

There is no such thing in Scotland as an 'original' birth certificate, other than an official 'extract' from the original Register of Births, regardless of when it was supplied.

In other words, there is no such thing in Scotland as an 'official' birth certificate going back to the time of the original registration. All that there was then and now, is an 'extract' from the original Register of Births; and anything now purchased from GROS, as long, of course, as it has the correct signatures and GROS embossed seal stamp on it, is just as legal as the document that your father misplaced somewhere; that was given to the person registering his birth, most probably his father or mother.

In other words, the only 'official' record is that in the relevant year's Register of Births held in Edinburgh. Whether or not you have the extract of that entry in that Register of Births from the time of the original registration or from a couple of weeks ago is completely irrelevant, as long as it is an extract supplied by the Register General Office Scotland.

When I asked if there was any point in your making direct contact with RGOS the reply from my contact was "No, as RGOS have made the situation perfectly clear to the Australian authorities on so many occasions over very many years", and he suggested instead that you instruct/request the person in the Post Office to refer the matter to a senior manager, not least based on the info supplied here.

I don't think that it would be too much of an exaggeration to say to the Post Office that you have been in contact with GROS (just leaving out the fact that it was via me!) and passing on to them the above info.

As we'd say these days in Auld Scotia, gie it laldy ! ( See http://laldy.com/ )

mb

[Currie]

If you follow the links in this page http://ukinaustralia.fco.gov.uk/en/help ... /passports you’ll end up in New Zealand and eventually find a pdf document clearly showing the acceptable UK birth certificates, and perhaps I’m going blind, but I can’t see anything Scottish. Maybe the Post Office or the High Commission isn't aware that Scotland has its own registration system.

“The relevant checklist will tell you what documents you need to submit and here is a guide to show what the supporting documents look like.[PDF 512KB, opens in new window]” http://ukinnewzealand.fco.gov.uk/resour ... -documents

Alan

[AndrewP]

To illustrate mb’s point, here’s a birth certificate for my great grandfather’s brother. He was born 15th January, 1878, in Edinburgh. His birth was registered on 7th February at age 3 weeks. The birth certificate was issued on the same day. You can’t get any more ’original’ than that but it’s still only an extract. http://www.talkingscot.com/gallery/thum ... m=4&page=1

Hi Alan,

I am in the SP Centre just now, and am looking at the image that you can view on ScotlandsPeople. On the extract, the registrar has added a detail that is not on the page in the register. The address on the extract is "66 Dean Path, Water of Leith, Edinburgh". On the page in the register, it is "66 Dean Path, Edinburgh". The registrar has added "Water of Leith" on the extract. "Water of Leith" is nowadays known as "Dean Village", an area of Edinburgh.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Currie]

Thanks Andrew,

That’s interesting, it’s not just an extract but an embellished one, if that’s the word, and even better than the real thing. If he was doing all this at the same time it makes you wonder which form he filled out first, and which is the extract of which. Maybe he even did the first column of each, then the second etc and changed his mind about what to write. I guess we’ll never know.

All the best,
Alan

[Montrose Budie]

If you follow the links in this page http://ukinaustralia.fco.gov.uk/en/help ... /passports you’ll end up in New Zealand and eventually find a pdf document clearly showing the acceptable UK birth certificates, and perhaps I’m going blind, but I can’t see anything Scottish. Maybe the Post Office or the High Commission isn't aware that Scotland has its own registration system.

“The relevant checklist will tell you what documents you need to submit and here is a guide to show what the supporting documents look like.[PDF 512KB, opens in new window]” http://ukinnewzealand.fco.gov.uk/resour ... -documents

Alan

Very, very sadly, far from uncommon to find find that authorities in other countries, even Oz and NZ, don't understand that Scotland has always had its own statutory registration system ever since 1855 ............

Completely separate, it should of course be mentioned, from the GRO system for England and Wales.

mb

[trish1]

Hello Ryan

This all sounds rather unbelievable - reminds me of the comments by some folks in the US that their President's birth certificate is not the "original". I had thought Australia was someways more advanced than this - but it seems not - unless we can blame N.Z.

Looking at Alan's link - "All documents must be originals we do not accept certified documents or photocopies.". Your certificate is definitely not a "certified or copied" document. In my state of Queensland there is no such thing as an "original" certificate - being one that was "filled in at birth". They are all copies of what is stored in the register - exactly as in Scotland. It irked me immensely that when my daughter was born I had to pay to get a record of what I told the registry office.

Somewhere it appears the post office (and maybe the NZ passport office) needs to understand that Scottish certificates LOOK different. I would maybe start by contacting the NZ Office - or getting the PO to do same. If the latter won't work, getting your local federal MP to contact the post office may have a quicker result.

I had an issue getting an appropriate UK visa some years ago - I ended up (luckily) finding someone at the High commission in Canberra who worked out what I needed - took some weeks and continuous calls and emails until I "lucked" onto the right person who knew ALL the rules. Maybe going to a different Post Office could be a winner.

Do please let us know the next installment of the story - it will surely help others in the future

Trish

[trish1]

(Don't bother with any UK embassy or consulate in OZ, as my experience is that their knowledge of a matter like this is severely limited.)

mb

Sadly I found this to be true - but in certain situations we have no choice but to work with the local organizations. In my visa issue - I wrote to the UK but every query got me sent back to the High Commission in Australia. I do remember - however - that the British office did send me a direct phone line into the section I needed in Canberra - which eventually led to success - so perhaps emailing the UK passport office may return a useful contact.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/agencies-p ... ontact-us/

Trish

[Andy]

I must be missing something here.

1. Ryan is an Australian who wants to apply for a British Passport

2. Ryan's application has been "knocked back" in an Australian Post Office

Question. What has the Australian Post Office, Government or any other Australian department have to do with an application for a British Passport?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AUSTRALIA!

I have travelled all over the world and have first hand experience of problems like this. The department you need is Consular Services at the British High Commission in Canberra or ANY of the other British Consular Offices dotted around your lovely country. If for any reason the lazy Brit Ex-Pats, paid royally by us British taxpayers, have managed to fob off British Citizenship processing to the Australian Post Office - OR ANY PART OF THE PROCESS. This becomes a matter for the Home Office, Lunar House, Croydon, London.

However, there are actually three types of extract available in Scotland:

1. Transcript: a Registry Office worker looks up DIGROS (the digitised system) and copies out the details in longhand (good for genealogists who need the correct info without added cost).
2. Abbreviated or Short Form Extract: Basically an A5 sheet of paper with all salient details (this is good enough for a, Scottish, British Subject requesting Passport, Driving Licence etc).
3. Full Extract: a legally certified, stamped, and recognized document with full details as appears on the original Register (should be good for ant purpose - ANYWHERE).

Another few questions: What would happen to a young-ish couple in Australia with children whose house was (God Forbid) burned down during a bush fire. All documents destroyed. Could the children EVER get an Australian passport without a supposed original document? If the father died "intestate" could a claim be made on the estate without "Original" documented proof?

While the privately owned British Post Office can now advise on British Passport applications (to save a bit of money) they can't judge on Naturalization or Nationalization.

I, really, don't doubt the advice you've been given in good faith, however I KNOW it's wrong!

Cheers,

Andy

[trish1]

Hi Andy

If you read Alan's link - the British High Commissioner in Australia no longer deals with getting British passports - sad but true. They are now processed through an office in NZ with the Aust Post Office the Australian Agent. The consulates only handle emergency issues. Thus said, I agree the Canberra folks may (but only may - the issues I had took months to sort out & all I wanted was a visa) sort out the misinformation in relation to documents from Scotland

Trish