How's your Latin? - Help with Latin translation required

Langtonian · Post by **Langtonian** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:56 pm

Assistance in translating this Latin text would be greatly appreciated:-

27th June 1551. Quo die dns robertus danyelstone rector dysert dixit et exposuit quod dns georgius strauchauchin vicarious pensionarius dictae ecclesiae parochialis contra statuta synodalia et contra tenorem ejusdem actiactitati inter ipsum dominum robertum et dominum georgium super residentia ipsius domini georgii et administratione officii sui inter parochianos dicti proche abcessit nulla ab ipso dna roberto neque parochianis petita aut obtenta licentia et quod substitutum quemdam dnm joannem quhyte capellanum in cura et administratione sui officii quod quidem substitutum neque quodvis aliud dictus dns rector neque admisit neque admittet ullis temporibus: quare protestatus est de actione contra dictum georgium et de remedio juris hora secunda post meridiem in domo habitationis douglas pro his testibus dno wt et rot car cum diversis aliis.

The text is from Notices from the local records of Dysart, ed. by W. Muir and published by The Maitland Club in 1853. The publication is available as a free pdf download from Google Books at:-

http://books.google.com/books?id=cO4HAA ... 1#PPA20,M1

Anyone with ancestry in the Dysart area of Fife will find this of interest and only a very small amount of the text is in Latin. It provides a fascinating insight into day to day life in the parish in the 16th and 17th centuries and you may even be lucky enough to find references to some of your ancestors as I did!

Of particular interest are the brief references to an outbreak of the plague which appears to have killed a staggering 400 in the parish of Dysart in approx 4 months in 1584, with a further 200 dying in the neighbouring parish of Wemyss.

Thanks,

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:47 pm

Hello Langtonian and Welcome to TalkingScot.

Just in case you aren’t given a translation and things get desperate there’s an online Latin-English translator at http://www.translation-guide.com/free_o ... to=English
There may be others. I just put in the whole block of text and got the following:

From day dns robertus danyelstone guide dysert dixit and to set forth and dns agricultural strauchauchin vicar pensionarius things dictated church parochialis against statue synodalia and against sense ejusdem actiactitati among itself master robertum and master agricultural over, upon residentia very demesne agricultural and giving of help workshop himself among parochianos in words brash abcessit nulla counting from ipso dna roberto worthless parochianis inclining toward either obtenta license and and substitutum whom dnm joannem quhyte capellanum upon management and giving of help himself workshop and indeed substitutum worthless and other word dns guide worthless admisit worthless to admit ullis temporibus : wherefore protestatus is about to act against word agricultural and about remedio juris hour accordingly after midday upon from home habitationis douglas for by these testibus dno wt and rot car when different aliis.

Looks pretty awful but if you paste it into a Word Document and try a translation of the non-English words using an online dictionary such as this one http://www.stars21.com/translator/latin_to_english.html on the original block of text it will give you a possible translation for each and every word. The end result might be total confusion but it’s possibly worth a try. If you get stuck with any words there are probably a number of old Latin-English dictionaries on Google Books.

While looking for a translated version of the above I came across another PDF variety of the book at http://www.scotsfind.org/ (see menu at left).

Hope this helps,
Alan

Langtonian · Post by **Langtonian** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:04 pm

Many thanks Alan.

I initially went down the online translation route with minimal success, there are a fair number of Latin words with numerous meanings depending on the context in which they're used. As you say a word for word translation may provide an insight into the general thrust of the passage.

The Scotsfind site is one I've found useful in the past. It's an interesting site with a nice collection of publications for the family historian.

Cheers,

George

Archiver · Post by **Archiver** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:09 am

For some reason, the online translations seem to think that the word 'georgius' translates as 'agricultural', which is wrong, as it is simply George!

I might be able to have a bash at it later today.

Langtonian · Post by **Langtonian** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:39 am

Fantastic news Archiver! Look forward to hearing if you can make any headway with it.

You are of course absolutely right about georgius, the first time it's mentioned George Strachan is being referred to.

Regards,

George

Archiver · Post by **Archiver** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:33 am

Right, I've had a bash at it and quickly got stuck...I have a Latin-Scots word list, and even it hasn't helped for some of them! But here is the first little bit:

This day, Robert Danyelstone rector in Dysart sees(?) and demands that George Strachan vicar (pensionarius suggests that he is paying a sum of money for this) in the said ecclesiastical parish against the statute of the synod and against the actions(?) of the same heritor George and holder of the office in the parish...

And that's as far as I got, unfortunately and it's a bit muddled. There's something about a John White (joannem quhyte) being a substitute for the position (I think!) and protests against the said action against George, but I don't really understand what it is.

My translation isn't as accurate as it could be, so I'll keep trying. How's everyone else doing?!

Archiver · Post by **Archiver** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:24 pm

Hmm, I've had another go and it still doesn't seem to make any sense...

This day, Robert Danyelstone rector in Dysart says and demands that George Strachan vicar in the said ecclesastical parish against the statute of the synod and against the course of the actions between the now heritor robert and heritor george over the remaining said heritor george and holder of the office leaves the said parish by no means away robert not petition the parish or obtain licence and that substitute who is john white […] and holder of the office that the subsitute not that the said rector not admit not appoint a temporary. Where protests against the action to the said george...

and that's where I get lost.

What I think it is saying is that Robert isn't happy with George, but that Robert isn't allowed to ask for a replacement, or isn't happy with John White, the replacement already appointed...or something! The Latin isn't great, but my translation skills leave a lot to be desired!

helenbee · Post by **helenbee** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:15 pm

My Latin isn't up to this, but I do know why they translated George as agricultural - the Latin word is georgicus!

Langtonian · Post by **Langtonian** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:44 pm

Archiver,

Fantastic work! What you've achieved is much better than I managed and gives me some indication of what the dispute may have been about.

My interest is in the John White who is mentioned.

Thanks also to helenbee for chipping in.

Regards,

George

Archiver · Post by **Archiver** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:53 am

No problem, but I'd find someone who's Latin is better than mine to check! I couldn't quite work out what they were meaning about John White.