Thomas Fram(e) Jean Guthrie

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:07 pm

I've uploaded the m.c. to the gallery.

Having difficulty reading the groom's parents' names and the name of the groom's first wife. Could be Margaret ?

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1515

Best wishes
Jean

Gallery URL added - AndrewP

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:41 pm

I think it must be Margaret Monteith, Jean. If only they had married a couple of days later.

In 1861 they are living with her father John Stenteith

according to ancestry.

THOMAS FRAME Pedigree
Male Family

Marriages:
Spouse: MARGARET MONTEITH Family
Marriage: 29 DEC 1854 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland

After seeing his children's names I wonder if his mother is Marion.

Kind regards,
Annette

Post by **AndrewP** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:54 pm

Hi Jean,

I agree with Annette's Margaret Monteith.

Groom : Thomas Fram (widower of Margaret Monteith)
Groom's parents:
- Thomas Fram, farm servant (deceased)
- Isabella Fram M.S. Struthers

From the IGI:

THOMAS FRAM / MARGARET MONTEITH
Marriage: 29 DEC 1854 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland

THOMAS FRAME
Birth: 25 OCT 1827
Christening: 28 OCT 1827 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
Father: THOMAS FRAME
Mother: ISABELLA STRUTHERS

All the best,

AndrewP

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:12 pm

Hi Annette and Andrew

I was really struggling with his mother's name. I could "see" Marian and Isabella.

Basically because of the daughter Marian born in 1859 and the fact that I'd found a birth for Thomas with the mother's name of Isabella Struthers.

At the same time if I had not found these names, I doubt if I would have come up with anything.

So which is it

Best wishes
Jean

Post by **AndrewP** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:24 pm

Hi Jean,

Here are the two generations of Fram(e) family.

Children of Thomas Frame (senior) and Isabella Struthers
JEAN FRAME - Birth: 28 APR 1825, Christening: 15 MAY 1825 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
THOMAS FRAME - Birth: 25 OCT 1827, Christening: 28 OCT 1827 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
JANET FRAME - Birth: 31 AUG 1832, Christening: 30 SEP 1832 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
MARGARET FRAME - Birth: 30 APR 1830, Christening: 06 JUN 1830 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
JOHN FRAME - Birth: 28 MAR 1835, Christening: 26 APR 1835 Barony, Lanark, Scotland
GRACE FRAME - Birth: 12 MAY 1837, Christening: 18 JUN 1837 Barony, Lanark, Scotland

Children of Thomas Frame (junior) and Margaret Monteith
ISABELLA FRAME - Birth: 24 MAR 1856 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland
JAMES FRAME - Birth: 22 NOV 1857 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland
MARION FRAM - Birth: 23 DEC 1859 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland
JANE FRAME - Birth: 06 JAN 1862 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland

Children of Thomas Frame (junior) and Jane Guthrie
JOHN FRAME - Birth: 20 NOV 1865 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland
AGNES FRAME - Birth: 28 MAR 1868 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland
ANDREW FRAME - Birth: 18 DEC 1870 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland

All the best,

AndrewP

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:24 pm

I'd go with Andrew's Isabella Struthers. I did see '....thers' at the end of the surname but couldn't make out the beginning.

I'm sure you will have seen this but this is that family in 1841-

Piece: SCT1841/622 Place: Barony -Lanarkshire Enumeration District: 3
Civil Parish: Barony Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 181 Page: 25
Address: Duke St Rd

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
FRAME Thomas M 40 Agricultural Labourer Lanarkshire
FRAME Isabella F 35 Lanarkshire
FRAME Thomas M 12 Lanarkshire
FRAME Margaret F 8 Lanarkshire
FRAME Janet F 10 Lanarkshire
FRAME John M 6 Lanarkshire
FRAME Grace F 4 Lanarkshire
FRAME William M 2 Lanarkshire

Regards,
Annette

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:25 pm

Why is nothing straight forward

I am doing this for my husband's half sister who at the age of 87 wants to know were she came from.

Her grandfather is William Frame, who according to the 1881 was 17 and born in Cumbernauld. So born about 1863/1864.

He is not shown on the IGI so don't know if he was the last child from the first marriage to Margaret Monteith or the first child born to Jane Guthrie. Chances are he is from the first marriage as Thomas married Jean Guthrie in 1865 (This is the certificate we started off with)

I thought all I had to do was go to SP and find his b.c. BUT he wasn't born in Cumbernauld.....drat

There is one born in East Kilpatrick in 1863. Is East Kilpatrick near Cumbernauld?

Best wishes
Jean

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:00 pm

How about this birth?

WILLIAM GUTHRIE Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth: 01 DEC 1863 Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland

Parents:
Mother: JEAN GUTHRIE OR GATRIE

regards,
Annette

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:08 pm

Hi Annette

You are a STAR!!!

No wonder I couldn't find him

Thanks so much. I'd forgotten about looking for a child with the mother's maiden name.

Best wishes
Jean

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:13 pm

Jean Jeanie wrote:Hi Annette

You are a STAR!!!

No wonder I couldn't find him

Thanks so much. I'd forgotten about looking for a child with the mother's maiden name.

Best wishes
Jean

I can see that Jean in 1861 living at Cumbernauld. Her age is a wee bit out but I'm pretty sure it has to be the same one as she says she was born in Campsie, Stirling and your Jean/Jane was born at Torrance (same place as far as today goes).

regards,
annette

Later......................I just looked at the 1871 and her age matches perfectly.