Mysterious Gordon Grandfather

Richard1979 · Post by **Richard1979** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:30 am

Hello to all

It was suggested I post here, as I have been researching my Scottish relatives for some years now. With lots of hard work, and fair few pennies spent on the way, have managed to build a pretty good picture of them, but still have a stumbling block with my 3 x great grandfather James Gordon.

He was a Master Cooper in Huntly, Aberdeenshire, where he married and lived most of his adult life. He married 3 x great gran Elspeth Troup in 1853 at Huntly, Aberdeenshire, so unfortunately just a little before civil registration, no details of his parents. A second cousin and I have had great succes in building their lives after this date, and that of their children, including some great family photographs and newspaper clippings of our Huntly Gordons some dating back over a hundred years. We have also had no real trouble tracing Elspeths lineage further back, but James is proving a site more tricky.

The main problem is he gives several different birth places on the sources we have for him

1851 (Census) Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
1855 (Sons Baptism) Rosehearty, Aberdeenshire
1861 (Census) Fyvie, Aberdeenshire
1871 (Census) Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire
1881 (Census) St Nicholas, Aberdeen
1891 (Census) Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire

It is the correct James on all census as he is at the family home 7 Back Street, Huntly, on all except the 1851 census, pre marriage, where he is instead at Drumblade, aged 25, working as a Journeyman Cooper, in the household of John Sutherland a master cooper in his seventies. He also gives Drumblade as his parish of residence on his 1853 marriage. None of his family ever appear on the census with him in Huntly or Drumblade, only his wife's. Unfortunately the only bit of documentary evidence that might have revealed his parents, his death certificate, the box is left completely blank, so presumably that seems to suggests his son William who registered the death had no idea where he sprung from either!

I was some time ago now in contact with another fairly close relative, another second cousin on this line, through one of James' daughters, though unfortunately have since lost contact. He believed from his own research James was the son of a John Gordon, of Turiff, a veteran of Waterloo and his wife Mary Ewen. He sent some great info through that he had researched on this John Gordons army services, which made fascinating reading. However, frustratingly, I have not been able to find any documentary evidence myself to support this link between James and this family. I did ask for further clarification and was told this link originates with family folklore recollected by an elderly relation in the U.S.A, who has unfortunately recently deceased. I was told its also perhaps possible this family may have been non conformists at this early date, which obviously would not help matters if is the case. I have however still no evidence so far myself that James himself was ever non conformist, at very least he was married within the conventional Church of Scotland. Unfortunately the census records for 1841 are not particular helpful either as they do not give family relationships, and as a consequence if anything just confuse the matter further.

Does anyone have any ideas where else I could go now to prove this link either way? It does seems terribly suspicious g-g-g- grandad giving so many different places of birth, and his own adult son being seemingly ignorant of his origin. Perhaps he was just a very secretive person by nature, but all instincts seems to be suggesting something more being hidden. The family lore link to John Gordon of Turriff is certainly tantalising stuff indeed, if indeed it proves correct, but even if not, would just love to be able to pin him down and have some actual hard evidence to know for definite from where and whence he sprung. He remains at the moment very much a mystery.

Any ideas much appreciated.

Thanking you in advance

Richard

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:33 am

Hi Richard,

I see at the IGI there are six children listed for James and Elspeth:

1. JANE ROSS GORDON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 17 OCT 1862 Huntly, Aberdeen, Scotland
2. WILLIAM GORDON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 13 AUG 1857 Huntly, Aberdeen, Scotland
3. JAMES GORDON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 11 MAR 1855 Huntly, Aberdeen, Scotland
4. MARY GORDON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 26 DEC 1864 Huntly, Aberdeen, Scotland
5. ELSPETH GORDON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 25 FEB 1860 Huntly, Aberdeen, Scotland
6. ALEXANDER MILNE GORDON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 27 FEB 1868 Huntly, Aberdeen, Scotland

Have you investigated the middle names Ross and Milne? I see a Jane Ross married a James Gordon on 1833 in Forgue Aberdeen, and there are a few Gordon /Milne marriages too. That is where I would start looking anyway, and would try to match up names with the 1841 census even if it doesn't mention relationshio.

Nina

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:56 am

Hi Richard

JAMES GORDON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 11 MAR 1855 Huntly, Aberdeen, Scotland

The 1855 birth should give more info than usual - have you checked this one out yet?

Also, using the Scottish name pattern from the childen, you should be able to project backwards to possible parent names.

best wishes
Lesley

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:40 pm

Have you tried following this family? - 1841 from FREECEN -

Piece: SCT1841/168 Place: Aberdeen -Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 6
Civil Parish: West Parish Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 4 Page: 1
Address: George Street

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
GORDON Isabella F 50 Aberdeenshire
GORDON Margret F 20 Aberdeenshire
GORDON James M 17 Cooper Apprentice Aberdeenshire
ROSS Isabella F 1 Aberdeenshire
EWEN John M 1 Aberdeenshire
MATHEWS Elizabeth F 35 Aberdeenshire

Regards,
Annette

Richard1979 · Post by **Richard1979** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:01 pm

Hello

Thank you for the replies.

This is the info on the oldest sons birth certificate:

"James Gordon, male, born 6.15 PM on 11th March 1855, Back Street Huntly, son of James Gordon, Master Cooper aged 32 years birthpalce Rosehearty, and Elspeth Gordon, maiden name Troup, 22 years, born Glenfiddich. Married 1853, 2nd child, previous child 1 girl (deceased). Informant: James Gordon, father. Registered at Huntly March 23rd 1855. Registrar: John Macdonald"

As you can see James gives his birth place there as Rosehearty, which he never does on any census, though I suppose Fraserburgh is near!

Unfortunately Jane Ross Gordon and Alexander Milne Gordon (gg grandfather) were both named after maternal aunties and uncles on their mothers side who lived in Huntly, so no clue to be found there either.

The 1841 Census I too originally found hopeful as the James there is a coopers apprentice. However that family is still there at same adress in 1851:

37 George Street, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire

Isabella Gordon, 60, head, House Keeper, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
Catherine Gordon , 34, dau, Flax Yarn Reeler, England
George Gordon, 25, son, Fly Dresser & Line Maker, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
James Gordon, 22, son, Flax Dresser, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
Martha Gordon, 19, dau, Flax Yarn Reeler, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire

This is where the relationships not being shown on the 1841 makes it dificult. It's hard to be certain whether the James Gorodn aged 17 with them in 1841 is the same son with them here in 1851 but aged 22.

Post by **SarahND** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:11 pm

Hello Richard,
Welcome to Talking Scot! [talkingscot]

This looks like it could be the same Isabella as the 1841 census above, in this oddly transcribed (by Ancestry) 1851 census. The fact that little Isabella Ross is still in the household makes me prefer this one:

1851
31 George Street, Aberdeen West
Isabella Gordon, 63, Head, born Old Pitsliy, Aberdeenshire (assume this is Old Pitsligo)
Isabella Ross, 11, Great Grandchild, born Aberdeen Aberdeenshire, Scholar
Jane McKenzie, 22
Henderson Clark, 13
Jane McKenzie, 22, Uncle, born Inverness, Invernesshire, Power Coom Weaver
Henderson Clark, 13, Uncle, born Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire, Scholar

Don't ask me who the two "uncles" were

I went off on a wild tangent here, probably nothing to do with you, but looking for the birth of Isabella, I came upon this in the IGI:

Isabella Gordon
Christening: 14 Mar 1788 Ellon, Aberdeen
Father: George Earl Aberdeen Gordon
Mother: Forrest

Googling this gentleman one discovers that the wife of George Gordon, Lord Haddo, 3rd Earl of Aberdeen (1722-1801, who this would seem to be) was Catherine Hanson... so Isabella would appear to be illegitimate. As were her two siblings:
John Gordon christened 20 Mar 1787
Charles Gordon christened 14 May 1790

Lord Haddo died in 1801, so the mother and children may not have been cared for after that point. My curiosity led me to download the christening of Isabella, to see who the mysterious "Forrest" mother was:

"Mar 14th The Earl of Aberdeen had a daughter by Mrs. Forrest called Isabella, witnesses John Gordon and Alexander Taylor here"

Here is more about George and "Mrs Forest"

http://www.leopardmag.co.uk/feats/33/ha ... tched-arms
George’s romantic involvements were as legendary as his parsimony, earning him a second nickname: ‘The Wicked Earl’.
His romantic record started in 1759, whilst on a visit to Yorkshire. During a stop-over at the Stafford Arms in Wakefield, he was so pleased with the mutton chops served for his supper that he demanded to see the cook. Thus he met Catharine Hanson, a handsome woman of 29 and immediately led her to his bedchamber. When the time came for him to return home, George could not resist the temptation to again sample the delights of the Stratford Arms.
According to J.W. Walker’s Wakefield: It’s History and its People, this time Catharine had a surprise for Lord Aberdeen. Faced with a loaded pistol and the choice of marriage or his life, George pragmatically decided the Gordons of Haddo would benefit from an infusion of English blood.
The story might have ended there but George’s appetite was insatiable. Whilst his Yorkshire countess was occupied with the births of two sons and four daughters, he continued to indulge himself in life’s simplest pleasure; Mrs Forest, the former housekeeper of his London home, was brought to the newly-acquired Cairnbulg Castle, near Fraserburgh, to deliver him a son called John; an illegitimate daughter was accommodated in the London house; yet another, unknown woman was housed at Wiscombe Park, in Devon, where she gave the Earl a son, Charles; his castle at Ellon housed ‘a lady of charm called Penelope Dering’, a friend of one of his legitimate daughters, who gave him a daughter and a son. One can be excused for concluding that George Gordon, third Earl of Aberdeen, had the constitution of a horse and the morals of an alley cat.

As I said, maybe nothing to do with your Gordons, but the Castle near Fraserburgh and the christening at Ellon are intriguing

All the best,
Sarah

Richard1979 · Post by **Richard1979** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:12 pm

Incidentelly, this is the family of John Gordon, the Waterloo veteran, and Mary Ewen, in 1851, that my second cousin believes are our James parents, and family lore suggests.

10 Porthill, Aberdeen Greyfriars, Aberdeenshire

John Gordon, 59, head, Flaxdresser R A Pensioner, Turriff, Aberdeenshire
Mary Gordon, 50, wife, Turriff, Aberdeenshire
James Gordon, 22, son, Shipcarpenter (journeyman), Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
Mary Ann Gordon, 21, dau, Cotton Reeler, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
Margaret Gordon, 14, dau, Hair Loom Weaver, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
Alexander Gordon, 12, son, Scholar, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
Robert Gordon, 10, son, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
Catherine Gordon, 6, dau, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire

The obvious problem though is their son James, baptised 1828, is listed there with them, correct age, the same year my James is counted aged 25 in Drumblade working as a cooper. Does seem hard to reconcile that.

Richard1979 · Post by **Richard1979** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:27 pm

Hello Sarah

Thanks for that. Interesting reading there to say the least! Aside from the colourful shenaningans of Earl Gordon..it's intriguing there are two Isabella Gordons on the same street, 2 to 3 years apart in age, on 1851. Perhaps I have got the wrong one after all, which does raise the possibility the 17 year old coopers apprentice could be my James, who turns up in Drumblade ten years later. Only problem is where does the family lore tie in with that?

Post by **SarahND** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:42 pm

Richard1979 wrote:Incidentelly, this is the family of John Gordon, the Waterloo veteran, and Mary Ewen, in 1851, that my second cousin believes are our James parents, and family lore suggests.

Could Mary be related to young John Ewen in the 1841 census that Annette found?

Regards,
Sarah

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:54 pm

SarahND wrote:Hello Richard,
Welcome to Talking Scot!
This looks like it could be the same Isabella as the 1841 census above, in this oddly transcribed (by Ancestry) 1851 census. The fact that little Isabella Ross is still in the household makes me prefer this one:

1851
31 George Street, Aberdeen West
Isabella Gordon, 63, Head, born Old Pitsliy, Aberdeenshire (assume this is Old Pitsligo)
Isabella Ross, 11, Great Grandchild, born Aberdeen Aberdeenshire, Scholar
Jane McKenzie, 22
Henderson Clark, 13
Jane McKenzie, 22, Uncle, born Inverness, Invernesshire, Power Coom Weaver
Henderson Clark, 13, Uncle, born Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire, Scholar

Don't ask me who the two "uncles" were
snipped...............

All the best,
Sarah

I reckoned that was the correct Isabella too for the same reason.

Regards,
Annette